Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2006 November 15

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November 15

Web page

I was looking for a page called 100 most viewed articles on wikipedia. Can anyone provide a link to the spot or where it is located?

The best place to look for such things is in Specialpages it is over there <---- in the side bar, and to narrow it down try Special:Statistics MeltBanana 01:09, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

http://toolserver.org/%7Eleon/stats/wikicharts/index.php?wiki=enwiki&ns=alle&limit=100&month=11%2F2006&mode=view is another one. Cbrown1023 01:10, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I love it.

• 74. Ted Haggard
• 75. Michael Jackson
• 76. Earth
• 77. List of gay porn stars

--Charlene 13:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

General of the Army

United States gets involved in a major conflict and were Allied with france and Germany. Which US General would most likely be in command of the Allied forces? Say, Hypothetically it was General James Jones. He would be promoted to general of the Army , to match the ranks of the commanders of France and Germany right? After the war, he retains the rank of general of the Army. Would General Peter Pace (chairman of JCS) be promoted as well? Because General James Jones would now have a higher rank than general Peter Pace. Jamesino 01:06, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

General James L. Jones is in the Marine Corps. In effect, while he pledges allegiance to the US and the USMC, he is now above the USMC line of command, as Supreme Allied Commander of a cross-national body (NATO). Like Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Peter Pace, he "outranks the current Commandant of the Marine Corps (General Michael Hagee) in terms of seniority and time-in-grade." Maybe congress would decide to give Pace, a national military leader, the role of General of the Army, and maybe give Jones the title General of the Armies! Or else one of them would be named General of the Army, and the other would be his deputy (a more likely option). It's an interesting question. Jpe|ob 01:26, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't the Supreme Allied Commander Europe, U.S. General James L. Jones, already command all NATO forces in Europe? Why would he nead a promotion? -- SCZenz 01:50, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, you're right. He wouldn't. Jpe|ob 02:40, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

What is this site?

Now, SOME inattentive people may have missed that I was actually asking a question. I would like to ask what this website means, if anything: [1] Someone said it was about Scientology, but it still freaks me out. Any answers? Vitriol 01:55, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Just a comment, when asking a question, please state it in your comment and not just your header. Cbrown1023 02:01, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

There's a whole forum devoted to this thing! [2] I still don't know how to make external links with words. Vitriol 02:00, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Like this. --Tagishsimon (talk)

There's a link here. What's in the zip file? I'm scared to find out. ;-; Vitriol 02:06, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, according to the countdown in the first link posted, it looks like we only have about 10 minutes from now till we find out. Unless the counter starts at 10 minutes for everyone else who loads the page. Dismas|^(talk) 03:52, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm kinda scared. Vitriol 03:55, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Great. It's an advert for a ski resort. Stupid trendy viral advertisers. Vitriol 04:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Xmas getaway

I live in UK. I hate Xmas. Where can i go to get away for a Wiki break for say 1week - 10 days? Must not be too expensive.--Light current 02:00, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Have you been to:

• places in the UK?
  • Ireland? That place is beautiful even though the food sucks.
  • Scotland? Nice too...
  • England? Beautiful architecture and monuments...
• the USA?
  • New York City--wonderful city with tons to see; The Statue of Liberty, Broadway, Times Square....
  • Orlando--theme parks galore: Walt Disney World, Universal Studios Florida, Sea World...
• France?
  • Paris is wonderous, especially at night... the Eifel Tower is amazing; the food's great, other great attractions
    • the Louvre! (the Mona Lisa!)
  • the countryside and coast are also beautiful and relaxing.
• Italy?
  • Rome is awesome!
  • Venice is definately worth a visit.
  • Pisa the leaning tower is pretty cool.

A lot more... but I have to keep in mind cheapness (France is nearby, Italy is near that, the US is across the ocean (and an a great place to visit) and the others are in the UK) and I have to get back to my homework. :( Cbrown1023 02:09, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Food sucks in Ireland??? You didn't look very hard- there is some great food in Ireland- esp steaks and seafood.

All of these places celebrate Christmas. Why don't you try North Korea? A real getaway. Clio the Muse 02:13, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I need somewhere where I can forget its Xmas and just enjoy it as a holiday (vacation).--Light current 02:26, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, Kim Jong Il's paradise is obviously the place for you: not a Christmas tree in sight. Enjoy as a holiday? I suppose this depends on your definition of enjoyment. Those cement factories are really something! Clio the Muse 02:32, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

You do know that your idea is slightly impossible because of the fact that you want cheapness and like a ton of places around you celebrate Christmas (and very few don't)? Cbrown1023 02:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, every place within cheap (and not so cheap) flying distance from the UK celebrates Christmas, in one form of another. Wider afield, I've seen it celebrated in places as diverse as Hong Kong, Siagon and Havana, Communism and Buddhism notwithstanding. Clio the Muse 02:42, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

What about Tunisia?--Light current 04:04, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, you will also find Santa in Tunisia. Clio the Muse 06:47, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

If you're a Brit and you want christmas on the cheap, try Krakow, absolutely magical place. Possibly you have a poor opinion of Poles due to the recent british 'invasion', not all Poles are like the one's that fled the country since joining the EU. ;) Vespine 04:29, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

And in Poland. It really has to be North Korea, the only place in the world where it is always winter and never Christmas. Clio the Muse 06:47, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

He wants to AVOID Xmas, not revel in it. Perhaps a country where Christians make a small percentage of the population? Middle East? India? -THB 09:03, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Map showing the prevailing religion of each country. SWAdair 11:47, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Or you could just get over your dislike of Christmas and enjoy it a little. Do some work with homeless charities, they could always use some help. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 12:41, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Or you could try Russia, where they celebrate Christmas nearly two weeks later than us, so you can miss Christmas here, and come back before their holiday! (Bit cold and dark at that time of year, though). -- Arwel (talk) 20:25, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Depends on what you hate about Christmas. If it's the commercialism, much of Eastern Europe would be your best bet. If it's the overt Christianity and "having Jesus shoved down your throat with a 40 ton hydraulic press" as one of my Jewish friends says, there are a lot of places in Turkey or even Israel (if you dare) that would likely be your best bet. If it's all the false camaraderie, I suggest a nice cabin away from it all in Scotland. --Charlene 13:38, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm Turkey sounds good. I just hope they dont provide turkey for the meals!--Light current 02:01, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Just have dinner on Christmas Eve and retire to your four-poster bed with the side curtains closed. Three spirits will visit you before dawn. You may find yourself a changed person. Edison 15:52, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Bah! Humbug! Clio the Muse 19:59, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Im not going to buy a four poster! Who do you think I am - Santa Claws?--Light current 02:04, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Railways Services in Israel

I need to know how long the journey from Tel Aviv to Jerusalèn takes, its price, and time schedules. On the other hand, I am interested in the same info., but regarding Bus Services instead of the train (between both cities). Thank you very much.

You can browse train schedules in Israel at http://www.israrail.org.il/english/index.html. An Intercity journey from Tel Aviv (Merkaz) to Jerusalem (Malha) takes approximately 1 h 30 min, and the trains depart every hour. The one way price is 19 NIS (for adults), round trip being 34.50 NIS. As for buses, their schedules can be browsed at http://www.egged.co.il/Eng/. The bus route 405 goes from Tel Aviv Central Bus Station to Jerusalem every 20 minutes, at least on weekdays, and costs 17.70 NIS. You may also be interested in the Wikitravel guide Bus travel in Israel. Have a nice journey! –Mysid☎ 08:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

WWI Music

Hi, I'm making a slideshow dedicated to the efforts of all the soldiers who risked and gave up their lives to fight in World War I. I am in need of a "patriotic" and "Inspiring" background music to go along with my slideshows. The music must be able to touch people's hearts. No lyrics preferred. Can anyone recommend a song to me? Thanks. Jamesino 02:05, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Possibly Nimrod from Elgar's Enigma Variations, swelling and poignant rather than jingoistic. Clio the Muse 02:09, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

The theme from Saving Private Ryan? Yeah, it's a World War II movie, but it doesn't matter. Seems to fit the bill. -Elmer Clark 02:20, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Jerusalem written in 1916 slap bang in the middle of it!--Light current 02:21, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Article is at And did those feet in ancient time. Rmhermen 05:02, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

From the pop song corner It's a Long Way to Tipperary Pack Up Your Troubles In Your Old Kit Bag If You Want to Find the Sergeant Major MeltBanana 03:03, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

You didn't list your country. If it's the US, then perhaps the Marines' hymn ("From the Halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli...") or the Navy fight song ("Anchors Aweigh") or the "The Army Goes Rolling Along". These tunes date from that period and are highly recognizable to Americans, even without the lyrics. StuRat 03:55, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

There's a lot of ways you could go with this one. If you want something not noisy and patriotic, it's hard to beat Clio's suggestion of Nimrod; also Elgar wrote his Cello Concerto, which has been called his "War Requeim", to the memory of friends who were killed in the war; also if you'd like to be more subtle, you could use the tunes from George Butterworth's orchestral rhapsody A Shropshire Lad (Butterworth was killed at the First Battle of the Somme in 1916). Many commentators have heard premonitions of the war in Mars from the Planets by Gustav Holst (written just before the outbreak of hostilities) as well as in Maurice Ravel's La Valse. Antandrus (talk) 04:10, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Let me add just one more: Ravel's Le Tombeau de Couperin, written 1914-1917. Each of its six movements was dedicated to a different friend of his who was killed during the war. The final toccata, a surprisingly uplifting little piece, is dedicated to Joseph de Marliave, the great Beethoven scholar who was killed in the Battle of the Frontiers in 1914. Antandrus (talk) 15:54, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

If you want something modern and sad, there's also Sting's Children's Crusade. StuRat 04:20, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

"Danny Boy" is often associated with soldiers going off to war, and the best-known words were set to the tune in 1913. Percy Grainger's orchestral arrangement of it (as Irish Tune from County Derry, or Londonderry Air) is the most moving one I know. JackofOz 04:43, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Finlandia —B00P 08:12, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I noticed on your userpage that you come from both Canada and the US. Songs popular in Canada during World War I include "Keep the Home Fires Burning", "Un Canadian Errat", and "Normandie". Recordings and lyrics of these songs, as well as others popular during the War, are available on the Government of Canada's Veterans' Affairs Department website here. The French songs are on another page (go to the bottom of the page on the link I gave you and click on "French Songs Popular during the War"). --Charlene 13:45, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

"Over there." Edison 15:54, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

A good choice but a bit fast and loud for music to be shown under photos, especially if somebody is going to be talking. If you could find a slow instrumental of the song, that might work. However, it would be inappropriate for a presentation in Canada (the lyrics "the Yanks are coming" did not make the song terribly popular up here). Fine for a presentation in the US, however. --Charlene 18:06, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks guys =) Jamesino 21:39, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

ratio analysis

- What is diluted earning per share! -What is the accounting treatment!

Did you read Diluted_EPS? --Anon, 07:20 UTC, Nov. 15.

I'm not quite sure what you're lookin for with "accounting treatment". In the US, it is required to be reported for publicly traded companies. It is defined by GAAP. Basically, it's EPS counting all shares including those that would be issued if all stock options were exercised. -THB 09:00, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Gone fishing

I need your help. I want to know the exact meaning of the phrase "gone fishing".Thank you. 203.87.204.38 10:06, 15 November 2006 (UTC)Efren

I'm guessing English is not your native language. It means "[I have] gone fishing." —Mitaphane _talk 11:04, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

As for "gone", it is the past perfect tense of the verb go. I go fishing → I went fishing → I have gone fishing. –Mysid☎

The phrase is frequently used to indicate that the person is taking a break from their normal routine. It doesn't necessarily mean they are fishing, but could mean that they are relaxing or doing something that interests them. SWAdair 11:10, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I believe that many other cultures don't view fishing as a hobby. In such cultures, it's just a way to get food. So, for them, "gone fishin' " wouldn't mean they are off enjoying themselves any more than "gone coal mining" would mean that to us. StuRat 16:43, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

'i went fishing.'--Coolsnak3 22:11, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

If I were to put a sign on my door saying "Gone Fishin'" then my intention was to say: I'm out and doing something recreational and relaxing (not necessarily fishing, but it could be). If I were "gone phishing" however... Robovski 04:15, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Biblical racism?

Hi,

One of my friends is a "Christian", albeit a very twisted kind of Christianity. He believes Asians/Non-whites are created at a different time from white people, and justifies such by contrasting Genesis 1:26 and 2:7. Thus, he concludes, the subsequent events (e.g. prophecies, etc.) only apply to White people (aka. Adam and Eve). Can someone who is good at the field of Hebrew or Christianity comment on this? Thanks a lot. --inky 10:12, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't quite see how Genesis 2:7 would have any impact on the racial type of early peoples. From Genesis 1:26, it seems your friend may be assuming that "in our image" applied to skin color. There is nothing in the Bible to indicate that Adam and Eve were white. Even Jesus wasn't "white" -- look at where he was born. And what about the flood? According to the Bible, all people today are descended from Noah and his family. If the prophecies applied to Noah and his family (and they did), then they also apply to their descendants -- the whole of the world. SWAdair 10:44, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I can't comment on the theology, but I can comment on the science. Race is mostly a sociological construct, not a genetic one. Genetically, all races are pretty similar except for a few details, some of which make us superficially different. Variations in human skin color developed because of variations in enviroments, not because we developed as different colored species. Where in the Bible's text does it say Adam and Eve were explicitly white? Outside of classical medieval paintings of Adam and Eve, created by white Europeans, we have no indications that they were white at all. —Mitaphane _talk 11:00, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Homo sapiens probably came from Africa so we were all black to start. Jesus was likely a bit swarthy being Jewish. Your friend is a "religious nut" and a bigot and you can't reason with people like that. Unless this could be a phase your friend is going through, you may wish to think about whether or not you wish to be friends with someone like that. You may also wish to try this question over at the Humanities Desk. They tend to be crackerjack with questions like this. -THB 11:43, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

If you want to put silly religious claims aside and look at the true order in which the "races" appeared, I believe it's Negro, then Caucasian, then Mongoloid. So, no matter which racist argument you use, Caucasians lose. If you argue that older races are "inferior", then that makes Asians superior to whites. If you argue that the oldest race has the oldest and therefore only legal claim to the planet, then that gives the Earth to blacks, not whites. StuRat 16:27, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

There are, of course, two stories of creation. Chapter one (seven days of creation) and Chapter two (adam and eve). There are various approaches to how to deal with this (beside multiple authors). I have never heard something as ridiculous as one story deals with white people and another of other races. It is clear to me that your friend's theology follows his prejudice and not the other way around. In chapter one, man and woman are made in the "image of God" if that is not referring to white people but only to blacks and Asians he is a bigger racist than I thought but in the other direction! Jon513 18:33, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

LOL and thank you to all people who responded. I will challenge (in a non-violent way, of course) him. --inky 18:56, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

He's probably referring somehow to the Sons of Noah who are the Biblical progenitors of the races. Might want to read that article, it probably has some relevant information. -Elmer Clark 05:37, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

The Bible (Old Testament, at least) was rather racist against all but the "chosen people", relegating the rest to be killed or enslaved. However, "the rest" would have included the Europeans of the time. StuRat 06:38, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

The previous comment is complete garbage.

There is not one statement anywhere in the Old Testament that suggests that one group of people is better than another. StuRat should either supply some examples or retract.

While the OT obviously presents Judaism as a superior religion (as the NT does for Christianity, the Quran for Islam, and any religion's Holy Book for its faith) there is utterly no suggestion that Jews are in any way superior to anyone else. To the contrary. Examples abound of Jews who are condemned and gentiles (Joseph's Pharaoh, Hiram of Tyre, the Queen of Sheba, Naaman Sar, Ruth, Orpah, Uriah the Hititle) who come off well. The OT contains the command "Thou shalt never despise an Egyptian."

That "Chosen People" business appears in one spot where Jews are chosen to be "a nation of priests," not "rulers of the world." Gentiles who obey the commandments given to Noah - reiterated by James the Just at the Jerusalam conference (Acts 15:29) - are considered to be "righteous." This stands in contrast to other religions where non-believers are condemned to Hell.

There is not the slightest indication that humanity is not considered to be one. Any group distinction are cultural, based on religion, language, or nationality, not genetics.

The original questioner's friend is merely a bigot who is looking for an excuse to cover up his own moral rot. He could just as well cite Euclid's Elements to justify his idiocy.

B00P 20:06, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Here is just one of many, many examples of Jews being given preferential treatment by God (here they are commanded, by God, to engage in genocide against the Midianites, not exactly "equal treatment"):

Numbers 31:

7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword.

9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder.

10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps.

11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho. [a] 13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp.

14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them.

16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people.

17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,

18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

StuRat 23:11, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Here's another example:

Jeremiah 50: "Attack the land of Merathaim and those who live in Pekod. Pursue, kill and completely destroy [c] them," declares the LORD. "Do everything I have commanded you." StuRat 23:26, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

And another example:

Joshua 8:

24 When Israel had finished killing all the men of Ai in the fields and in the desert where they had chased them, and when every one of them had been put to the sword, all the Israelites returned to Ai and killed those who were in it.

25 Twelve thousand men and women fell that day—all the people of Ai.

StuRat 23:43, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Another example:

Judges 21:

10 So the assembly sent twelve thousand fighting men with instructions to go to Jabesh Gilead and put to the sword those living there, including the women and children.

11 "This is what you are to do," they said. "Kill every male and every woman who is not a virgin."

12 They found among the people living in Jabesh Gilead four hundred young women who had never slept with a man, and they took them to the camp at Shiloh in Canaan.

StuRat 23:45, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

And yet another example (Egyptians treated poorly by God):

Exodus 13:

15 When Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go, the LORD killed every firstborn in Egypt, both man and animal. This is why I sacrifice to the LORD the first male offspring of every womb and redeem each of my firstborn sons.'

StuRat 23:40, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Yet another example (defiling and committing genocide against members of another religion):

2 Kings 10:

25 As soon as Jehu had finished making the burnt offering, he ordered the guards and officers: "Go in and kill them; let no one escape." So they cut them down with the sword. The guards and officers threw the bodies out and then entered the inner shrine of the temple of Baal.

26 They brought the sacred stone out of the temple of Baal and burned it.

27 They demolished the sacred stone of Baal and tore down the temple of Baal, and people have used it for a latrine to this day.

StuRat 23:53, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

(Format of all the biblical quotes altered by ColinFine 02:28, 17 November 2006 (UTC))

Thanks to all people who still responded. Keep the responses coming! :) Also, I am sensing a bit of heat here, so cool down. :) Thanks a lot people! --inky 00:45, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

---

Thanks for the response. However, it doesn't deal with the issue at hand. The question dealt with racism, not nationalism. It is hardly surprising that, in war, one kills one's enemies. What you have not done is supply anything that indicates that the Israelites are being told that the nations they are fighting are made up of inferior people. Nor again, is there the slightest suggestion of the notion that all mankind isn't related. Since that was the subject of the question, all these citations are irrelevent as they are off-topic. B00P 07:40, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

According to the Bible, non-Jews were routinely massacred and/or enslaved, whether by the Jews or by God directly. Now, whether the reason was their race, religion, culture, language, or some combination of those factors isn't exactly clear. What is clear, is that, if you weren't a Jew, your people were subject to genocide for the slightest offense, or even none at all. In the end, it doesn't much matter what you call it. StuRat 12:41, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

No, that is not at all clear. God has several times allowed Jews to be enslaved by surrounding nations because of their unfaithfulness. (No, they were not totally destroyed like some other nations but they were punished.) And until and unless you find a citation (in Bible) that says God ordered destruction of other nations because of "race" you are widely off-topic. Shinhan 18:11, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Wrong. If God had totally wiped the Jews off the face of the Earth at the first sin, as he had with other groups, then you would have some evidence that Jews were treated the same as the other races. However, that didn't happen. StuRat 00:44, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

The difference between the position being taken by StuRat and that of Shinhan and myself seems based on different definitions of "racism." Wiping out one's enemies root-and-branch during wartime is, by my definition, not racism, if there is no indication that it's being justified by claims of genetic superiority. (I am not stating that I approve of it, just that it isn't "racism.") StuRat thinks otherwise, equating a "take-no-prisoners" order in tribal warfare with the original questioner's friend's warped view of humanity. There, I suppose, the issue will have to rest. B00P 08:28, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. There couldn't possibly have been any racism under BOOP's def of "genetic superiority" as the concept of genes didn't exist back then. At the time, there wasn't the differentiation between the concepts of race, tribe, and culture which now exists. StuRat 23:22, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

how do i find

Old pages on the ref desk? i asked a question a week or two ago, but didn't get a chance to see the answers. Thanks

They're here --Tagishsimon (talk)

You can do a regular old search in the box below or go through the archives at the top of the page if you know the date. Hope you find the answer to be satisfactory. And please sign your name with four tildes! -THB 11:46, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia's search capabilities are rather pathetic (you have to spell the search term perfectly, for example). I suggest using Google instead. First try the search term alone, then try it with "site:en.wikipedia.org" added (without the quotes) to restrict the search to English Wikipedia. StuRat 16:11, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

At some point, Google started asking you "Did you mean:" when you mispelled. It still asks you that question, but now it goes ahead and assumes you made a mistake and gives the corrected results. Why does it bother to ask???? -THB 17:16, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Can you give an example? When I google 'encokclopedoa' it can't find any results and suggests 'encyclopedia', but does not give the corrected results. Two interresting other results: 'encyclopediatrician' appears to be a word (?) and when I google 'gogle', it suggests 'google', but not 'goggle'. And even when I google the correct word 'goggle' it still asks if I didn't mean 'google'. A bit self-centered, it seems. DirkvdM 07:03, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Some day you will type "zebra" and it will ask "Did you mean 'Where can I buy a cheap DVD ?' ". LOL. StuRat 10:46, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Now you lost me. Is that a US electronics shop? I'm sure a ZEBRA (computer) wouldn't know what to do with a dvd. DirkvdM 07:09, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

No, my point was that, once commercial forces take total control of Google, any search term will instead be redirected to an ad page for whatever they are trying to sell that day. StuRat 12:33, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

You can search just the Reference desk archives by adding site:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk_archive to your Google search to search the archives before October 2006, and site:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives to search the archives including and after October 2006. — QuantumEleven 16:27, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I think it probably lists the term with most hits as the "correct" term. Therefore "google" is considered more correct than gogle or goggle because as a search term it garners much more hits than these others. Shinhan 19:31, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Cream variations

Can someone explain how clotted cream compares to crème fraîche? I am quite familiar with the latter and quite unfamiliar with the former. Thanks. -THB 11:58, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

They taste quite different. Clotted cream is a bit sourer than creme fraiche and often richer, because it's usually higher in fat. Depending on where you buy it, creme fraiche can be as low as 32% MF, while clotted cream has to be above 55%. Creme fraiche is usually made from pasteurized milk, which gives it more of a "cooked" taste than clotted cream (even though the milk from which clotted cream is made is heated, it isn't heated to as high a temperature as pasteurized milk). The sourness is made from different strains of bacteria, which gives a different flavour as well - creme fraiche tends to have a nuttier taste than clotted cream, but that can vary from country to country. For instance, in Canada commercial dairies use the same bacteria to make creme fraiche as is used to make buttermilk (when you can find it - it's vanishingly rare here and generally you have to make it at home, but then again Canadian recipes generally don't call for it). Most importantly, the dairy cattle which give the milk used to make Cornwall and Devonshire clotted cream are of a specific breed and strain, whereas creme fraiche can be made of milk from any breed of dairy cow. --Charlene 13:26, 15 November 2006 (UTC) Edited to add a few words I missed.

Wow, thanks. You should add that information to the articles. -THB 14:39, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

It's original research, though, from my own cooking experiences and my work at a dairy in college. --Charlene 17:55, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

And another point I should have mentioned - you can buy creme fraiche far more widely than you can clotted cream. In fact, you can make your own creme fraiche with thick whipping cream and a tablespoon of buttermilk, if you can't find any at a reasonable price (the only store that sells it here is 15 km away, halfway across town, and sells it for $9.50 for a 200 gm container). Clotted cream is more difficult to make because to do a proper job you need whole raw milk, which isn't always available. --Charlene 04:58, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I second that, really interesting! Charlene, what about Mascarpone? Do you have any experience comparing that to clotted cream fraiche? Anchoress 18:08, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Mascarpone is made in a completely different way. It's actually a cheese. The flavour is mainly dependent on the cows' diet - in Italy, they feed the cattle lavender, sage, and other herbs. Fat content can be anything from 15% to 45%, and in Italy (which is the only type legally called mascarpone) it's sometimes a bit higher than fat. It's also not soured by a bacterial culture; it's soured by adding either tartaric acid or lemon juice. This means that all the natural sugars are still in the cream. (The bacteria in cultured milk products digest the sugars - acids are one of the byproducts of the process.) In fact, it's heated to above pasteurizing temperatures before the souring agent is added to prevent bacterial growth. That's why mascarpone is both sour and sweet - it isn't in the "rotten milk" category that THB mentions below. It should really be consumed within 48 hours of processing. --Charlene 04:46, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

To me, mascarpone is more like blenderized cottage cheese and crème fraîche is more like sour cream. -THB 00:31, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmmmm, are you sure you aren't getting mascarpone mixed up with ricotta? Cuz Mascarpone is kind of like extra-rich, less sour cream cheese. It's really rich, while cottage cheese is very low in fat. Also, it's extremely smooth, smoother than cream cheese. Anchoress 00:36, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I think mascarpone is more like blenderized ricotta, too. You can make a kind of "cheese" by draining yoghurt through a coffee filter overnight. It's in the same family of texture/taste as well. I guess it's a spectrum of rotten milk. -THB 02:48, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Really? Are you sure the mascarpone you had wasn't bad? Because it's more like really really thick whipped cream, and it has a sweet, very mellow taste, not like yogourt at all. I asked Charlene the question I asked her (perhaps not very artfully) because I'm curious v/v her particular experience with dairy products. I'm curious as to the comparison between mascarpone, creme fraiche and clotted cream (which mascarpone is closer to than to yogourt or cottage cheese). Charlene seems to have some interesting insights. Anchoress 02:53, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

No,no, I never said it was like yoghurt. But now that you mention it, blenderized ccttage cheese is similar to very thick whipped cream. Let's don't even start on farmers cheese! -THB 03:17, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

By the way, in Canada "farmer's cheese" is a form of hard white cheese similar to Havarti or Gouda. You learn these things when somebody gives you the Joy of Cooking. (And then there are scallions and confectioner's sugar.) --Charlene 04:50, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Apparently the stuff I was talking about has a name, labneh. -THB 03:20, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I think it has a few different names. Mmmmm, I love that stuff. Anchoress 03:59, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of confectioner's sugar, if you don't use it often, don't buy it, just put regular sugar in the blender. -05:37, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Sound Clips

Is there a site where I can get a variety of free sound clips? I want background noise for a 14th century European fair, but I don't know where to get it. Яussiaп F 15:23, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Try going to a petting farm (or a regular farm) and recording some of the animals. There would have been a lot of those for sale at such a fair. StuRat 16:00, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

At a Renaissance fair. -THB 16:20, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

But beware that the English spoken at such fairs isn't very authentic for the time period intended. StuRat 18:04, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

neither is the music.--Coolsnak3 22:14, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

You might try the audio search at alltheweb.com, just type in search terms like "renaissance" or "crowd noise" or things like that. User:Zoe|(talk) 03:50, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

• Sometimes libraries have sound-effect records/CDs,at least my main one here in the UK does.82.138.214.1 15:13, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Limits on legal contracts ?

What are the limits on legal contracts ? What I mean is, can you be reasonably expected to read a 10-page legal contract with each and every item of software loaded on your computer ? If so, could you be reasonably expected to read a 1000-page contract ? Is there some point at which a court would just decide "this is absurd, obviously nobody will read this, therefore the signing party did not give 'informed consent' and the contract is invalid". StuRat 15:56, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

In almost any country, the courts tend to hold to the 'reasonable man' position. So if you put things in impossible terms, or ultra-fine print, the judge might get a tad upset. --Zeizmic 16:33, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I reproduce here an extract from the Wiki entry on Lord Denning who was a famous and much-loved English Master of the Rolls (Head of the Civil Court), who tried many times (sometimes uncuccessfully) to influence the law and its judgements to fit in with his own 'man-in-the -street' view of justice.

Even in rather mundane cases, Denning was able to see matters from a realistic, common-sense perspective, often that of the man-on-the-street, which gave his opinions a "real-world" application. For instance, in Thornton v Shoe Lane Parking [1971] 1 All ER 686 (CA), the plaintiff drove into the defendant's car park and was given a ticket by an automatic machine, which stated that it was issued subject to conditions displayed inside the car park. The conditions inside the car park were in small print and one of them excluded liability for damages to vehicles or injury to customers. The plaintiff was injured due partly to the defendant's negligence. The plaintiff was not held to be bound by the notice displayed inside the premises. Denning said that the clause was so wide and destructive of rights that "In order to give sufficient notice, it would need to be printed in red ink with a red hand pointing to it - or something equally startling."

Check up on Maricopa, Arizona

Could someone check the veracity of this edit? It sounds fishy, is from an anon, and has no edit summary, but it's not obviously vandalism. Thanks. --Tardis 16:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I found a ref and stuck it in. Looks like an interesting trail system. -THB 17:09, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Experian

Experian Credit agency-there is no address posted to send a dispute through the US Postal service. I'm trying to clean up my credit report!!

Call them: 888 397 3742. You may need to include certain information. -THB 17:11, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

NYC power plants

I have been looking forever for a map (or list of addresses) indicating the exact locations of all power plants in the Greater New York City area. It would be great to find detailed information on all of them, such as type of plant (coal, natural gas, etc.), funding, megawatt output, and so on. I would greatly appreciate all help. --Naferius

I only see lists of nuclear plants on the internet. If you create such a list, please consider contributing it to Wikipedia as an article. -THB 17:14, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I see you said NY CITY, I was thinking state. What do you consider the Greater NYC area? The MSA? Are you including Jersey & Ct. suburbs? Most of NYC's power comes from elsewhere. On the other hand, even the MTA has its own power generation plants. -THB 17:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I found in the 2006 annual report of Consolidated Edison that they have 692 megawatts of geneeration in the city. They did not give addresses (perhaps for secuirity reasons.) See http://library.corporate-ir.net/library/61/614/61493/items/192542/Con_Edison_2005_Annual_Report.pdfEdison 01:00, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for all your help. --Naferius 17:20, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Distinctive Smell

I have no idea how i'm going to word this without potentially causing offence but i'll try...I have heard that people from the Orient describe British people as having a distinctive smell of sour dairy products. Similar examples could be, i'm sure, replicated across the global. I wondered whether there was a terminlogy/reasoning behind this. Clearly not everyone suffers this thing, but I would be lieing if i didn't say there wasn't a different 'smell' that is somewhat linked to a country's traditional cuisine.

I'm guessing that as a member of a culture you nose will 'tune out' the general smell, and thus when you go to another culture you notice their smell more because it is different to your usual, but I have no idea whether my guessing is even remotely true. Hope I didn't cause offence! ny156uk 18:34, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I've heard the same myself. British people do eat a lot of dairy products, and those in the Orient less so. Your hypothesis on becoming acustomed to a smell holds some weight, this is quite a common feature in perception. --Salix alba (talk) 18:59, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I've heard a similar thing in which the cause of the smell was more specifically ascribed to waste products of the digestion of meat being secreted in the consumer's sweat. I'm inclined to think it may be an urban legend kind of thing.  --Lambiam^Talk 02:06, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I've heard of this as well but don't have any evidence other than anecdotal. Dismas|^(talk) 02:24, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Everybody stinks! And that stink is peobably modifed by what we eat. Quote from body odor page:

Since body odor often differs between cultures (because diet and hygiene differ between cultures), and because people find unfamiliar body odors to be disagreeable, body odor has long been used by societies to look down on others. 17th century Japanese encountering Europeans for the first time found their odor particularly strong and likened it to the smell of rancid butter, and assigned the name bata-kusai (roughly meaning "stinks of butter") to visiting Europeans at the time. [1]

--Light current 04:21, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Mechanistically speaking, there is a refractory period through which an olfactory sensory neuron goes after it is activated by an odorant and before it can be activated by another molecule. If one is continually exposed to an odor, the refactory periods increase and the neurons that detect the smell eventually become accommodated to the activation and stop firing. Thus the odorant will continue to bind to the receptor on the neuron in the nose, but since there is no signal the second order mitral cells, that connect the olfactory bulb to the regions that interpret "smells" in our brains, will no longer be activated on the detection of that smell. In this way, when you are "used" to smells you no longer "notice" them, (though you still detect them). So since those in the West are completely accommodated to any subtle odors that our diet may cause us to produce, we wouldn't even know we produced it until we came into contact with those from a completely different environment. Rockpocket 06:58, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

And the same thing could be said for the Japanese, who likely had an equally intense odor. We all smell, but somehow the Europeans are always the ones accused of smelling different. --Charlene 17:04, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

The only Europeans the Japanes had dealings with for centuries were the Dutch. And the Dutch are known for eating loads of diary products (alledgedly the cause the Dutch are the tallest nation on Earth). While on the subject of the perception of Dutch people abroad, the Indonesians nicknamed the proboscis monkey 'Orang Belanda', meaning 'Dutchman', because of the big noses and bellies. :) DirkvdM 07:38, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Dutch are tallest people on earth because they eat a lot of cheese which is made backwards?--Light current 15:18, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I heard Montenegrins were taller... What do they eat? =S 惑乱 分からん 21:24, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Diary products, eh, Dirk. Does that mean the Dutch eat every day of the year, like normal people?  :) JackofOz 00:43, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Good thing I didn't say diarrhoea (given the subject at hand). DirkvdM 07:22, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Three Box Sedan

I have been researching the 2008Toyota Corolla, and I keep seeing reference to a "Three Box Sedan". Wikipedia has no such item listed and I can't find it listed anywhere. Please let the world know what a "Three Box Sedan" is.

Thanks in advance,

Douglasw10

Have a look at Three-box styling. Downunda 23:00, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Tier 1 Universities

I hear people talk about "Tier 1 Universities" - what is that? Who is included in this list? Not a dog 20:49, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I believe the term, at least as I've heard it, is "Tier 1 Research Universities." This pdf provides some insight into what one university thinks is required to achieve this status. I'm looking for more info. -- SCZenz 21:49, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Often refers to the US News & World Report rankings. The rankings are divided into four tiers, with only the top two tiers receiving numerical ranks. (IIRC, ranking the second tier is a recent change) Mishatx 04:47, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Marshall vs. Eisenhower

Was Supreme Allied Commander General Dwight Eisenhower higher in command authority than Army Chief of Staff General George Marshall back during WWII? Jamesino 21:40, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Marshall outranked Eisenhower in the U.S. chain of command. Not sure how that translated to command of allied forces. Edison 22:38, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Eisenhower was Supreme Commander in Europe. Marshall, being Ike's boss, outranked his subordinates (eg, Montgomery) and, following the chain of command, was over them, too. B00P 20:23, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

CSM vs 2LT

In the United States Marines or Army, can a young 2nd Lieutenant give an order to an experienced Command Sergeant Major on a battlefield? Also, If those two met each other in the halls of a military base, who would salute who first? Jamesino 21:42, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

A commissioned officer always outranks a non-commissioned officer, no matter how senior. Hence the sergeant would be obliged to salute first. Clio the Muse 23:09, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Also command sergeant major may sound like a fancy title, but it is preliminarily an administrative function, not a combat one, so they would also most likely not give orders on the battlefield.. Vespine 23:37, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

However, taking the general case of the experience enlisted solider versus the inexperienced officer, I suspect that, while the enlisted man would show the necessary respect publicly (out of fear of reprisals), that, once alone with his men, they would ignore any stupid orders likely to get them killed, and instead follow the sage advice of the experienced enlisted man. StuRat 02:01, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

saving instant messages on yahoo

i am trying to find out if there is a way to retreave the old instant messages on yahoo instant messanger. i really need them if anyone could help i would greatly apprecate it. and may god bless.

If you haven't logged them I don't think they get saved anywhere. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 22:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I expect the U.S. government has a copy of them, but they might not be willing to admit it or to share them. Edison 22:39, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

They probably aren't available unless you had them logging at the time. In the future, I'd recommend using a client that supports logging, such as Trillian. Actually, doesn't Yahoo!'s own client also support logging? --Czj 08:37, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

It does, yes. If the questioner has logging turned on, they will have been saved (check preferences). --Richardrj ^{talk email} 08:43, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Keyboard malfunction

Moved to Computing/IT Reference Desk--link at top of page. -THB 03:37, 16 November 2006 (UTC)