Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2017 May 15
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May 15
[edit]Transliteration from Arabic
[edit]I would be grateful if a user could please transliterate from Arabic letters to English letters the entry in a population register shown on the link. <a href="http://chaimsimons.net/Arabicletters.jpg"> </a>Thank you 89.138.85.124 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 07:36, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
- They are not legible. Omidinist (talk) 18:17, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
There are two methods which might improve the clarity of the Arabic letters. One of them is to decrease the size of the image. The second is to go to the actual Population Register. This can be found on the internet at: http://www.archives.gov.il/archives/#/Archive/0b0717068002269e/File/0b071706809d4c06 Scroll down to page 75. The required entry is the fourth family down from the top of the page, or alternatively it is the fourth family up from the bottom of the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Simonschaim (talk • contribs) 04:29, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
How many languages have ever existed?
[edit]I've been wondering, has anyone attempted to estimate how many languages have ever been spoken? If so, how are these estimates made, and what are the results? I realize that this question is probably impossible to answer conclusively, but I'd be interested to know of any attempts made. 2602:306:321B:5970:9889:9295:DC56:B865 (talk) 14:07, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
- First define "language" unambiguously, then we might be able to start a meaningful discussion. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 14:12, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
- This blog - http://thelousylinguist.blogspot.co.uk/2010/11/94000-language-deaths.html - suggests about 100,000 (give or take 40,000) and links to some research on the subject. Wymspen (talk) 14:24, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
- To save anyone the bother of reading the blog which Wymspen linked to, his/her argument is that If we assume that languages come and go at a pace that correlates with populations, then we can assume that the current 6000 living languages are about 6% of the total number of languages that ever existed. That means the total number of languages that have ever existed is around 100,000. Not a whiff of a basis for that assumption. this essay is one of several to mention David Crystal estimating in his Language Death (which I don't have, so I've no idea of the reasoning) between 64,000 and 140,000; it also quotes a figure from Mark Pagel of up to 500,000; and presents a model which I haven't read (but which you might, if interested) which gives a figure of ~150,000. At a minimum, it's not such a silly question that no-one's bothered to ask it. HenryFlower 20:58, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
- Your point being that there is no such thing as a silly question? Do you have an RS for that? One simple question. How many indigenous language families were there in Europe before the advent of Indo-European? The answer? No one has a clue. μηδείς (talk) 00:22, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
- No, my point being that respectable linguists have addressed the question; and that this being a reference desk, we could (shock horror) actually refer people to them. HenryFlower 04:27, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
- "Respectable" perhaps is a relative term, Origin of language notes that the subject is nigh-on impenetrable, and that ANY attempts to answer questions such as this one (any discussion of the number of languages ever spoken has to first start with how language originated!) are basically impossible to answer, and that attempts to do so amount to little more than wild speculation, albeit some speculation done by people with certain post-nominal letters sometimes gets more attention, it isn't necessarily any less speculation. --Jayron32 15:23, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
- I've always been fascinated by the certainty with which some linguists state there was exactly one. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:44, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
- No, my point being that respectable linguists have addressed the question; and that this being a reference desk, we could (shock horror) actually refer people to them. HenryFlower 04:27, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
- Your point being that there is no such thing as a silly question? Do you have an RS for that? One simple question. How many indigenous language families were there in Europe before the advent of Indo-European? The answer? No one has a clue. μηδείς (talk) 00:22, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
- To save anyone the bother of reading the blog which Wymspen linked to, his/her argument is that If we assume that languages come and go at a pace that correlates with populations, then we can assume that the current 6000 living languages are about 6% of the total number of languages that ever existed. That means the total number of languages that have ever existed is around 100,000. Not a whiff of a basis for that assumption. this essay is one of several to mention David Crystal estimating in his Language Death (which I don't have, so I've no idea of the reasoning) between 64,000 and 140,000; it also quotes a figure from Mark Pagel of up to 500,000; and presents a model which I haven't read (but which you might, if interested) which gives a figure of ~150,000. At a minimum, it's not such a silly question that no-one's bothered to ask it. HenryFlower 20:58, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
- I'm not satisfied that I understand the phrase "a pace that correlates with populations". Does it mean that there are 16 times as many dead humans as live humans, and therefore we can estimate that there are 16 times as many dead languages as live ones, or something else? —Tamfang (talk) 09:22, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, that's what it means. HenryFlower 09:26, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
- I'm not satisfied that I understand the phrase "a pace that correlates with populations". Does it mean that there are 16 times as many dead humans as live humans, and therefore we can estimate that there are 16 times as many dead languages as live ones, or something else? —Tamfang (talk) 09:22, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
- Ethnologue has catalogued just over 7000 current languages, but there is always a problem that languages often exist on a dialect continuum and that "There is no universally accepted criterion for distinguishing two different languages from two dialects (i.e. varieties) of the same language". This sort of calculation is bound to vary wildly depending on the criteria used for the counting. After all, people living in Brazil today speak a version of Latin, though the transition from Vulgar Latin to Brazilian Portuguese didn't happen in one instant. There wasn't ever a time when people suddenly couldn't understand their neighbors, like one day a group of Latin speakers woke up and suddenly was speaking Portuguese. Such changes happen gradually over many centuries. So, while we may be able to say, today, that Latin and Brazilian Portuguese are distinct languages, at some point in history, they weren't, and what was THAT? Was that a variety of Latin? A variety of Portuguese? A distinct third language? --Jayron32 14:38, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
- One might as well ask how many families have existed. μηδείς (talk) 19:48, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
- One answer is "All of them." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:54, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
- Which of course, probably isn't correct. For example, there are plenty of sign languages, e.g. New Zealand Sign Language, American Sign Language and perhaps even International Sign which aren't spoken, at least in accordance with the ordinary English meaning of the world. In fact our article says "Sign languages share many similarities with spoken languages (sometimes called "oral languages")". Nil Einne (talk) 09:15, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
- That assumes the OP meant "what percentage of languages have ever been spoken?" as opposed to other forms of communication. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:45, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
- No it doesn't. Nil Einne (talk) 03:05, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
- That assumes the OP meant "what percentage of languages have ever been spoken?" as opposed to other forms of communication. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:45, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
- Which of course, probably isn't correct. For example, there are plenty of sign languages, e.g. New Zealand Sign Language, American Sign Language and perhaps even International Sign which aren't spoken, at least in accordance with the ordinary English meaning of the world. In fact our article says "Sign languages share many similarities with spoken languages (sometimes called "oral languages")". Nil Einne (talk) 09:15, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
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