Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2017 July 29
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July 29
[edit]"Kicking the bucket" as an NPI
[edit]Please do my homework for me; whoops no I mean please nudge me in the right direction.
Background: To "kick the bucket" is a jocose idiom meaning "die" (it mysteriously has its own article here). "Non-affirmative item" is Rodney Huddleston and Geoffrey K. Pullum's sensible term for what's more commonly called a negative polarity item. (Sensible, because NPIs don't need a negative context; they merely produce unhappy results in affirmative contexts.) It's common for a word to be an NPI in one sense and not in another: as an example, yet is not an NPI (is not polarity-sensitive) in "He was tired yet happy", but is an NPI in "I haven't finished yet", "Have you finished yet?" and (ungrammatical!) *"I have finished yet."
Right then: In their introductory grammar text A Student's Introduction to English Grammar, Huddleston and Pullum have the following exercise:
- For each of the following words or expressions, construct one example where it behaves as a non-affirmative item and one where it is not polarity-sensitive: [i] anything, [ii] kick the bucket, [iii] need (verb), [iv] whatever, [v] yet
(Original emphasis.) I've answered [v] a few sentences above. Of the others, [i], [iii] and [iv] are easy too. But [ii] has me stumped. Affirmative, and not polarity-sensitive: "He kicked the bucket". In what sense/use of this idiom must it be non-affirmative (an NPI)? -- Hoary (talk) 06:54, 29 July 2017 (UTC) Slightly reworded Hoary (talk) 11:45, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you, but the answer to that question is terrible. Note the "only" in that question. The answerer failed to notice it, or noticed it and ignored it: he or she merely showed that the idiom is not a positive polarity item (PPI). But nobody had thought that it was a PPI. -- Hoary (talk) 13:17, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
"he says he don't" / "he says he doesn't"
[edit]Was/is the first sentence right/acceptable? Would that be equivalent to the expression "he were" inste4ad of "he wasn't"?--B8-tome (talk) 12:06, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
- The first is considered a colloquialism, common in some dialects, but technically an error because "he" is singular and "don't" is plural. "He were" might possibly be the subjunctive, otherwise the same applies. Dbfirs 12:55, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
- Couldn't the "don't" be subjunctive too? For example, " It is important that she stay by your side." (from the page linked by you) could be transformed into "It is important that she don't stay by your side." B8-tome (talk) 13:03, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
- No, because "he says [that]" is not a context where a subjunctive can occur. --ColinFine (talk) 13:13, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
- No to answer your first question: the first example (with don't) is not correct because it uses the form of the verb "to do" required for "I" or "you", which is do, do not or don't; whereas it should use the form required or "he", which is does, does not or doesn't. Yes, to answer your second question: he do—he do not—he don't compared to he does—he does not—he doesn't is the equivalent of he were—he were not—he weren't compared to he was—he was not—he wasn't. (A small correction on User:Dbfirs's answer above: "don't" is singular except when used with "he" or "she", and plural for anything: so I don't, you don't, we don't, they don't but s/he doesn't.) Bazza (talk) 13:06, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, I was thinking of "they don't" which is plural, but you are correct that "don't" can be singular when it is a shortened form of I do not and you do not. Dbfirs 16:45, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
- No to answer your first question: the first example (with don't) is not correct because it uses the form of the verb "to do" required for "I" or "you", which is do, do not or don't; whereas it should use the form required or "he", which is does, does not or doesn't. Yes, to answer your second question: he do—he do not—he don't compared to he does—he does not—he doesn't is the equivalent of he were—he were not—he weren't compared to he was—he was not—he wasn't. (A small correction on User:Dbfirs's answer above: "don't" is singular except when used with "he" or "she", and plural for anything: so I don't, you don't, we don't, they don't but s/he doesn't.) Bazza (talk) 13:06, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
- "Roses are red / Violets are blue / Some poems rhyme / But this one don't." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:44, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
- Negative subjunctive clauses in English do not normally use do-support, so the negative form of the noun clause in "It is important that she stay by your side" would be " It is important that she not stay by your side." Deor (talk) 14:49, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
- User:Deor has it exactly right. μηδείς (talk) 00:33, 30 July 2017 (UTC)