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November 25

From the Russian: twice-bannered, twice-starred

I've just started a bit of native speaker's cleanup of the page here for the Alexandrov Ensemble, formerly known in brief as the Red Army Choir. In Alexandrov Ensemble#The renaming of the Ensemble we have the inelegant phrasing "Twice Red-bannered and Red-starred ..." I've a healthy respect for foreign entities' own English-language translations of their particular nomenclature, certainly in treating a former Soviet institution. So if this wording or another is "the official" or otherwise canonical form used in English by the Ensemble, I'd leave it in peace, adding a line to Talk:Alexandrov Ensemble#Names. (N.B. see the suggested "two times" for "twice.") . However, I'm unable to check it. The multilingual "European Homepage" in External links is broken, as is the .ru Official Home Page "Contact Us" feature (!). Meanwhile I'm leaving a message in the Guest Book of the "Unofficial Blog of the Alexandrov Ensemble of the Red Army". Perhaps in the interim there's another information channel I've overlooked? -- Cheers, Deborahjay (talk) 08:30, 25 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Amazon use the translation A. V. Alexandrov Twice Red-bannered and Red-starred Academic Ensemble of Song and Dance of the Soviet Army, if that's any help. I believe from previous discussions here that the "... named after A V Alexandrov" construction may be over-literal. Tevildo (talk) 11:17, 25 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's not only clumsy in English, it's also potentially misleading. The phrase "twice red-bannered and red-starred" sounds as if they won two red banners and two red stars, and this is the interpretation implied in the heading here "twice-bannered, twice-starred." But in fact, the ensemble won two banners and only one star; the "twice" is attached only to "red-bannered" and doesn't distribute to "red-starred". It's not easy to translate this kind of Soviet-era pomp into another language, especially when constructions that would be an awkward false title in English are more normal in Russian. --Amble (talk) 20:12, 25 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Would simply flipping the construct ("red-starred and twice red-bannered") not solve the problem? I understand that overall it remains clumsy, but at least it wouldn't be misleading?—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); November 25, 2015; 22:01 (UTC)

Ëzhiki, perhaps you could weigh in at the Alexandrov Ensemble article on how to handle the naming of the ensemble? Your suggestion is less ambiguous, but also a less direct translation. I'd trust your judgement on how to balance precision vs. clarity here. --Amble (talk) 23:30, 25 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A probable variant is "The two Orders of the Red Banner and the Order of the Red Star Ensemble...", how do you think? Somewhat clumsy but it means clearly what it has to mean.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 11:38, 27 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

OP summarizes: Considering the input provided above, my preference is to contact the Ensemble by some means to ask for their authorized English-language version of its official name, then make this information available to the other WP language projects via Wikidata. I'll update the Talk:Alexandrov Ensemble page accordingly.-- Deborahjay (talk) 14:15, 27 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Twice Red-bannered and [once] Red-starred" keeps the original construction while clarifying the numbering. Akld guy (talk) 19:04, 27 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]