Language desk
< May 12	<< Apr \| May \| Jun >>	May 14 >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

May 13

Japanese question

What are the Japanese characters in this image? File:How to Use the Japanese-style toilet.jpg WhisperToMe (talk) 05:40, 13 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

和式便所の使い方 Washiki benjo no tsukaikata Siuenti (talk) 06:10, 13 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! WhisperToMe (talk) 06:25, 13 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

MPs

Why is the plural of Member of Parliament, Members of Parliament, but the plural of MP , MPs. Shouldn't it strictly be MsP? .Widneymanor (talk) 09:38, 13 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

For the same reason that plural runs batted in are RBI or RBIs, not RsBI. An abbreviation becomes a word unto itself. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:53, 13 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

MSP means Member of Scottish Parliament, so couldn't be used anyway. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fgf10 (talk • contribs) 13:07, 13 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your responses. Just as an aside, I used to work for a UK Government Department that had numerous Directors General and it was the norm to refer to them in writing as DsG (rather than DGs), and in speech as Dees Gee, not Dee Gees. I often wondered whether this was a case of Hypercorrection, or whether it was, in fact, correct. Widneymanor (talk) 15:15, 13 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Either is correct in speech; I would be inclined to regard DsG as hypercorrection. My own former employers used to refer to DGs in this context. We used to have to work hard to stop people writing 'Director Generals' in official correspondence. AlexTiefling (talk) 15:16, 13 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

By that logic, wouldn't a single Disk Jockey be called a DsJ, considering he deals with multiple disks?

KägeTorä - (影 虎) (もしもし！)

09:32, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No, a disk jockey is a type of jockey, not a type of disk, so the correct plural is disk jockeys. On the other hand, a director general is a type of director, so the plural is directors general. --Jayron 32 14:25, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, but in keeping with French word order, we must also keep its grammar, which would be 'directeurs generaux' making the plural in English DsGx, would it not?

KägeTorä - (影 虎) (もしもし！)

09:48, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Like most "Why" questions about language, the answer is "because it is", or "because that's how people use it", or "because language is nearly always created by the people who use it, not by the experts or authorities who think they know how it ought to be". --ColinFine (talk) 16:27, 13 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Our Acronym article's section on "Representing plurals and possessives" mentions some other examples, the one Bugs gave plus POWs and WMDs, gives the same reason Bugs gave ("because acronyms become bona fide words as language evolves, and as with other words attract a plural suffix at the end to be made plural, even if the first word is the main noun in the spelled-out form"), and writes that "MsP" is less common and "may appear dated and pedantic". ---Sluzzelin talk 19:59, 13 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Very helpful, many thanks. Widneymanor (talk) 20:21, 13 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Another explanation is that "MPs" is the plural of an abbreviation, not the abbreviation of a plural. A true pedant may use "MP" for "Member of Parliament", since it is available for use; but would never write "MPs" or "MsP" or any other short form for "Members of Parliament", since no authoritative list of abbreviations ever defines the putative contraction of that plural expression. Such definitions are confined to the singular. Language users have no right to make things up as they go along without the imprimatur of the most respected grammarians. Heavens above! That would be the end of civilisation as we know it. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:03, 13 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

According to the OED, the plural form MPs dates back to at least 1874. It cites Disraeli: "There were no less [sic] than four M.P.s, one of whom was even in office." MPs is also used for Military Policemen, where there is no S at all in the full version.

I've often wondered why in cricket we have the batsman and fieldsmen although the players wield only one bat and there is only one field. In baseball I understand they don't do this. 156.61.250.250 (talk) 09:31, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]