Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 June 3

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June 3

on line sites with English words hard for foreigners?

I have been searching on line, at a spanish-speaking friend's request, for sites that offer a list of hard-to-pronounce English words. One of the listed "anemone" as the most difficult. The obvios google results have been horrible. I am looking for something on an advanced level that gives words (mostly in the (American-, but also British-type dialects) that present a difficulty for non-natives. Phrases like six sixths, cowboy baby, and squirrel's strengths. Can anyone with ESL experience or a general knowledge of the topic recommend any appropriate site/references? Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 01:23, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

You can find English tongue twisters listed at http://www.uebersetzung.at/twister/en.htm.

—Wavelength (talk) 01:32, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Websearching on 'difficult English words' gives a number of examples.

There are also Comparison of American and British English, Scottish English, Northern England English and (mostly humorous) books on how to speak the latter languages. Jackiespeel (talk) 12:59, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

What I am looking for is not so much tongue twisters (whose individual words are often easy to say), but single words that are difficult to pronounce. One example might be uncomfortably, which is easier in British than American because in British all the vowels are pronounced, while in American (my dialect at least) the word comes out "uncomfterbly" with metastasis. I did the same google search, and got the suggestion that rural and anemone were hard words to pronounce, which makes me wonder, for whom? μηδείς (talk) 21:30, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Anenome is a struggle for me (as a cockney), if I ain't careful, I make an enemy. And you don't want an anenome as an enemy. Rural is no problem to me, though: perhaps rubrick would be a better test? Si Trew (talk) 01:40, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

I think some people turn the first vowel of 'rural' to a schwa, and then find the almost-consecutive 'r's difficult. I've known a lot of Brits insist 'temporarily' is pronounced the same as 'temporally', which seems weird to me. Other than the fact that it doesn't rhyme with 'telephone', I'm not sure what the problem is with 'anemone'. AlexTiefling (talk) 21:39, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

I'd recommend Bill Bryson's book, Bryson's Dictionary of Troublesome Words. And being an American by birth, but living in England for twenty-odd years in his twenties and thirties, he acutely picks up on the differences, at least from his own experience. Anyway, early dictionaries were only "hard words", and mostly "for the benefit of the fairer sex. Si Trew (talk) 01:38, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

"Anemone" not a million miles (or kilometres) from its Spanish counterpart, "anémona" if Bing Translate is to be believed. Is the pronunciation wildly different? Alansplodge (talk) 17:33, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

The consonants and cadence are the same, the unstressed vowels are reduced in English, and we have a weird long ee ending as if it were uh-nem-uh-ny. μηδείς (talk) 19:18, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

An aborigine named Daphne was an expert in the use of the apostrophe, and that's no hyperbole. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:52, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Half a point off though, for mixing the Greek nominitive feminine nouns in -η (-ē) with the Latin prepositional phrase ab origine, "from the origin", nominative orīgō. μηδείς (talk) 03:21, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

This is the English language we're talking about here. I'm in rather good company when it comes to mongrelising every other language and cooking all manner of disparate things together in a linguistic casserole that would make Éscoffier smile. Or Heston or Nigella or Marco or Julia. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 03:49, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

From my Google search for palabras inglesas pronunciaciones dificiles, I found this webpage.

• http://www.profesoraingles.com/pronunciacion-palabras-dificiles/

On that webpage, the video "Errores Comunes de Pronunciación en Inglés" has a pronunciation of each of these 41 words.

accept, Asia, audio, blood, Britain, busy, camera, captain, chemicals, chocolate, colour, cousin, curtain, decision, example, famous, first, fortunately, fruit, London, Monday, money, month, mountains, muscle, musician, open, patience, pupil, question, situation, society, soldier, special, statue, talk, useful, vegetable, vehicle, would, zero

—Wavelength (talk) 18:19, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. For the most part though, these aren't really difficult words to pronounce, just words whose pronunciation is difficult to guess from the spelling (which was the case in the British daily from the google search that listed anemone and choir). Of course having zero in that list is simply odd. No Spaniard who can pronounce the z should have any problem with that. μηδείς (talk) 21:20, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Checking out the site itself, it's got quite a bit of errors; like leaving the s off the end of archaeologists; suggesting that average is pronounced averidge, rather than avridge; and saying centenary is /senˈtiː.nər.i/ which, rhyming with "sane scenery" I suppose might be almost Australian. But the site uses Webster's spellings. μηδείς (talk) 21:34, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Ahem, "average" IS pronounced "averidge" over here in sunny England and "centenary" definitely rhymes with "scenery". Alansplodge (talk) 22:44, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

From which dialect of English does "quite a bit of errors" come? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:09, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Latin American surnames

Please excuse this question from an ignorant Anglo... but I have noticed from time to time a significant difference or two in the "Spanish" surnames of Central America and southern South America - for example, if a surname ends in -ez, it seems more likely to come from Mexico or Central America, whereas surnames ending in -arri or -aga seem to come from Argentina or Uruguay. Is there some reason for this? Do, for instance, the -arri and -aga endings have native American origins, or were the settlers in these regions originally from different parts of Spain? And are there specific "Spanish" surnames which indicate strongly that a person comes from one particular Latin American country? Grutness...wha? 05:19, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

One thing to remember is that, like the U.S., where English is the native language but not everyone's ancestry comes from the British Isles, in Spanish-speaking parts of the Americas, not everyone's ancestry comes from Spain. For example, 25 million Argentines claim Italian ethnic heritage; meaning that 60% of Argentina is of Italian decent (see Italian Argentine). Even though that Argentine is speaking Spanish, odds are better than 50/50 he or she has an Italian surname, and there's a large number of Argentines from other European backgrounds (see Ethnography of Argentina). One can also look to other Spanish-speaking Latin American notable persons and find loads of names from places other than Spain. Bernardo O'Higgins, Alberto Fujimori, Anthony Quinn, Louis C.K. (Székely), Che (Ernesto Guevara Lynch), Vicente Fox, etc. all come from Latin American countries, and all bear names from outside of Iberia. So, if you're finding that the names from one region of Latin America sound different from other regions, they may not even be Spanish in origin; indeed in the case of a country like Argentina, they probably aren't. --Jayron32 05:46, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Well, that's true with any country, and I can recognise those non-Spanish names fairly well (an obvious example would be the central European surname of Frida Kahlo, for instance). Similarly there are quite a few Portuguese names with -nha endings. It's the ones which sound as though they do have Spanish origins (which is what I mean by using "Spanish" in quote marks) that I'm intrigued by. Grutness...wha? 08:20, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

There's at least an even money chance that any name owned by a hispanophone that ends in -iaga or -izaga is Basque in origin. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 05:55, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

There are other Hispanophone names of Basque origin as well, Jiménez (surname) and García (surname) are two very common names with Basque origins. --Jayron32 06:14, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

...and anything ending in -chea or containing an x near the end for that matter. I didn't know about the Italian connection (I knew there were Welsh in Argentina, but not Italians). Thanks for the comments. Grutness...wha? 08:17, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Have you ever heard of Jorge Mario Bergoglio, whose Italian father migrated to Argentina and whose mother was Argentine-born of Italian descent? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:24, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Arantxa Sánchez Vicario was born in Barcelona in Catalonia, and "tx" is a feature of Catalan orthography. The original post is about surnames, and Category:Catalan people includes Antoni Pitxot.

—Wavelength (talk) 23:13, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

The -arrí ending is also Basque. Basque names certainly do occur in Mexico. They may be more common in South America. Perhaps people of Basque origins, coming from a climatically cooler region of Spain, were more likely to settle in parts of the former Spanish empire with more temperate climates, so that the more tropical territories had a lower proportion of Basque settlers. Marco polo (talk) 14:20, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

WP has an article about Basque surnames in general and often articles on individual Basque surnames. In such articles you can often find a list of well known people wearing that name. For example at Etxeberria (most common Spanish spelling "Echeverría") you'll find people from Mexico, Colombia, Argentina, Chile and Ecuador (not to mention Spain of course). Articles on specific surnames may also be a way to explore other (non-Basque) Hispanic names and see where, in Latin America or elsewhere, they're found. Incidentally the -arri element means 'stone' (as a word it is spelled 'harri'). It can also occur at the beginning of the name as in 'Arrigorriagakoa' ("the one of the place of the red stones"). All of this comes from WP. If you didn't know the importance of the Italian element in Argentina you certainly have got a lot of exploring to do. Have fun. Contact Basemetal here 14:46, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

And then there is the great actress Lupita Nyong'o, born in Mexico to Kenyan parents, who has dual citizenship. Her first name is Mexican and her surname is Kenyan. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 04:50, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

"Autumn" in American speech

I'm not a native English speaker, however, when talking to Americans I use a perfect American accent - just as I use a perfect British accent when speaking with Brits.

Today I happened (by mistake) to use the word "autumn" (once only), in a long conversation with an American guy who doesn't know me. I wonder whether he got surprised to hear this British word come from a speaker who was using a perfect American accent during the whole conversation. Do you think he really got surprised? In other words, can the word "autumn" be used (even just rarely) by Americans? 77.125.249.98 (talk) 19:29, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Americans use both "fall" and "autumn". Searching for "autumn" at the LA Times site returns 1154 hits. Here's an example. The choice of the one or the other often depends on the rhythm. In this article "autumn tones" clearly sounds better than "fall tones". Contact Basemetal here 20:04, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Thank you so much... 77.125.249.98 (talk) 20:59, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm just amazed how you manage to use both a perfect American accent and a perfect British accent without being a native English speaker. I'm not a native English speaker either. I have a better command of English grammar than very many native English speakers (although not even nearly all of them), but I still find my accent is horrible. Not as horrible as the famous "rally English" spoken by Mika Häkkinen or Kimi Räikkönen but nevertheless far away from a native accent. Maybe this is because I've had to routinely speak English for years now, but I've never actually lived in an English-speaking country? JIP | Talk 21:46, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Sounds extremely unlikely anyway. Even native American and British speakers can't imitate the other accent perfectly. OP's probably got a completely obvious accent and people are just being polite. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:37, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

I never once caught out Hugh Laurie, although they may have removed bad takes from House. I was once asked where I lived in Oaxaca, by a Oaxacan, (waHAka) although I've never been to Mexico. And BTW, I have no idea where this silly notion Americans don't say autumn comes from.μηδείς (talk) 03:12, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

@JIP and @Adam Bishop (I'm the OP): I'm very good at imitating foreign accents, and I do that perfectly; Not only English accents (mainly General American and British RP), but also German accent, Russian, French, Arabic, Chinese, and the like, however, for achieving this goal I must speak very slowly; Really, when I speak rapidly or fluently - I can no longer hide my own accent. Anyways, most of the people I talk to (slowly) - in their native accent, get shocked when I tell them I'm not a native speaker of their language. I remember, some years ago, an American old man I met - who was sure I was a native speaker (just because of my speech) - tried to guess "where in US" I "come from", and eventually insisted that I must have come from NY, although I've never been to US... 77.125.249.98 (talk) 22:39, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Upload something to YouTube. Contact Basemetal here 23:09, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

In Chinese? Arabic? French? Or what? Choose a language first. Some years ago I took a part in a performance in which I had to read aloud a long text in six languages (including Amharic), something like "welcome to all of you, thank you so much for joining us tonight", bla bla bla. The audience enjoyed it. I think somebody has already uploaded the whole performance to YouTube, but I don't know where to find it.77.125.249.98 (talk) 23:30, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Which of those languages are you actually able to speak? I don't suppose you can speak all of those languages, so you mean you are able to learn by heart any text in any of those languages and then speak it back with a perfectly native accent? Contact Basemetal here 11:35, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

As for your first qurstion: none (as far as a native level is concerned). As for your second question: yyyyep... 77.125.249.98 (talk) 12:07, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

And when you learn the text, do you have to have a model (a recording of the text spoken by a native speaker) that you strive to imitate? Or are you able to make up the accent by yourself without any model? Contact Basemetal here 12:54, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

I must have the text written in IPA, and I also must have a human model (whether recorded or not) - at least for other texts (in that language) written in IPA (if not a human model for the very specific text I have to read aloud publicly). Listening to the model - even in other texts (in that language), is very important in order to pick up - both the "music" of that language - and the connection between the IPA and the reality.

Let's take English as a simple example (maybe the simplest one). Everyone can hear it everywhere in the media (CNN, BBC and likewise), so the problem of finding a model for English has already been solved. As for IPA: when we were young students at school, we were asked to purchase Collins dictionary (English-English) that gives the exact IPA for every word (in RP accent). As an autodidact, I swallowed this dictionary (mainly its excellent introduction), and compared what I read there with what I was hearing on BBC. That's how I learnt the British accent (RP). Later, I purchased another dictionary giving the IPA in General American accent - which I could easily practice practically by the CNN programs or the American movies I was watching. 77.125.249.98 (talk) 15:43, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Pretty good. Seeing you going through the whole process is certainly worth a YouTube video. How about doing it for French and English? You realize that this is easier than carrying on an impromptu conversation in a way that would be undetectable to a native speaker. Not only have you got to produce that perfect accent as you go but that requires more than just a perfect accent. It requires grammar, proper usage of words, idioms, etc. In any case, I take it, you are able to achieve that perfect accent only when talking very slowly. (That's ok. That's what children do. I think adult foreign language learners often make the mistake of trying to speak too fast, as if they could obfuscate their imperfect competency that way.) PS: Seeing you swallow that dictionary would be worth a YouTube video all by itself. Contact Basemetal here 17:05, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

The scary part about people learning am American accent from the movies is that they almost always come out sounding Like they are from Brooklyn. Brooklyn, Texas. μηδείς (talk) 00:38, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

There is actually one sense in which the word "autumn" is used exclusively, even by Americans. That's the metaphorical sense, meaning "close to the end", as in "the autumn of his life". And the autumnal equinox is used exclusively to describe the equinox during autumn, just as the vernal equinox is used exclusively to describe the equinox during vern. :-) StuRat (talk) 03:40, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

In fact "spring equinox" and "fall equinox" are common usages. --174.88.135.200 (talk) 05:50, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

That is, the normal U.S. word is "fall", and the fancy word is "autumn" (hence its use in literary or scientific contexts). Art LaPella (talk) 04:07, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't know where this is coming from. The best that might be said is that the British consider fall an Americanism, if they do. The only thing we had to be taught about autumn as kids was the unexpected spelling of a word we already knew. In fact, checking EO, this is indeed all bee ess: Sense of "autumn" (now only in U.S. but formerly common in England) is by 1660s, short for fall of the leaf (1540s). μηδείς (talk) 04:19, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Speaking as a native American English speaker (20 years in Michigan and 43 years in California), I consider "fall" and "autumn" to be synonymns, and I have a slight personal preference for "autumn", since it is unambiguous. I do not really consider "autumn" to be much more fancy than "fall", except by a tiny bit. Just my personal perceptions, FWIW. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 04:38, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

I think the cachet which adheres to autumn is its hidden en. In the noun form it's ought'm. But the adjectival form sprouts an en: oughtumnal. That's the source of the word's magic power. μηδείς (talk) 04:46, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

. . Bus stop (talk) 06:12, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Cullen, is the school semester before Christmas called "Autumn semester"? --Jayron32 06:24, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Jayron32, since I have been out of school for four decades, I no longer base my season names on semester names, and do not think I ever did. My vocabulary has never been based on that of pedagogical bureaucrats. I always though it strange to call a middle school principal "Doctor". Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:32, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Jayron's correct most college catalogs are for the spring and fall semesters, but autumn takes up more space. The opposite could be said, do we speak of fall leaves or autumn leaves? As noted above, the choice is often one of rhythm. This is why English is the best language in the world, it has so many words to choose from with which subtly to express the nuances of a concept, borrowed over the centuries without prejudice from so many sources. μηδείς (talk) 21:25, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Depends on whether his or her degree affords him that dignity. --Jayron32 06:35, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

We are straying a bit, but the only people I call "Doctor" in ordinary social speech are physicians, not those with a "piled higher and deeper" or an EDD degree. Let them throw the initials after their name in print. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 07:27, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

This is of course technically incorrect, as an MD only has a professional courtesy title of Dr, as they (usually) don't have a PhD. I stand by my right to use Dr. 131.251.254.154 (talk) 13:39, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Doctor of Medicine, Doctor of Law, Doctor of Philosophy, etc. "Doctor" doesn't mean medical doctor. It means "expert". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:58, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Actually, it means "teacher", see [1]. Thus, university professors with PhDs are properly doctors. The occupation known as a docent comes from the same root word. --Jayron32 00:08, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

You may think you have a perfect British accent, but calling someone from the United Kingdom a "Brit" is a dead giveaway. We are English, Welsh, Scottish or Irish. Queen Victoria had a go at calling Scotland North Britain, and there is the term Briton, but it is not widely used and would probably be considered offensive. (I have a perfect cockney accent, by the way).

Leaving that aside, fall is in Shakespeare, and autumn also, about half and half. it was in transition at that time. at the cusp of the 17th century. Like many words, the Colonies (later to become the U.S.A.) kept the old English, and the English (this was before the Act of Union 1707) took the French "automne" and modified it. So the American is, in a sense, more English than the English. Si Trew (talk) 00:53, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Looking at English from the outside, I think that the originally latin words like autumn are usually a bit longer, fancier, for "higher" ("elevated") speach and writing, the words from the Germanic side shorter, "lower" in use, better to shout. — Fritz Jörn (talk) 08:38, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Yep. The words "vernal" and "autumnal" are from Latin, while "spring" and "fall" are from northern European languages. It's odd we have "autumn" in our vocabulary, but not "verna" or whatever it would be. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:21, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

The Latin for spring is ver, veris. I wonder why we stick an 'n' in there. Why vernal and not veral? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 10:29, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

It's not 'we'. The Romans already did. ("Ils sont fous ces Romains!") Cf Latin vernus, vernalis (both adjectives "of the spring"). So what's that 'n'? Is there a Latin adjectival suffix 'nus'? Any IEist around these days? Contact Basemetal here 12:49, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Inverno, winter in Italian, has an n, but that comes from Latin hibĕrnum, they say. And spring, primavera without n from popular Latin primavera, from classic Latin primo vere, meaning at the beginning of spring, which loops back to ver, veris. – Fritz Jörn (talk) 14:03, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Apparently there is a suffix -nus and it is the origin of the 'n' Jack was asking about. (I'm answering my own question not Fritz's comment; damn edit conflict). This page even gives the examples (the second example is the very word): *dius- + -nus = diurnus; vēr- + -nus = vērnus; *noctus- + -nus = nocturnus; pater- + -nus = paternus (middle of the page). (No 'a-nus' jokes here please) This page says that suffix is cognate to the English suffix '-en' (as in 'wooden', 'golden', 'brazen'). As to 'vernalis' it is not based on a '-nalis' suffix but on an -alis suffix used to form adjectives from adjectives: thus 'vernalis' is built on vernus + -alis. Another exemple would be diurnalis, built on diurnus + -ālis which gave our word 'journal'. Contact Basemetal here 14:14, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for that. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:47, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

The -n- suffix (the -us and other endings are separate) when added to things like Roma ended up being reinterpreted over time, so the original Roma-n-us became interpreted as Rom-anus. Hence the -anus ending came to be in Latin and -an in English. The original jovi-al (like Jove) becomes Jovi-an (associated with Jupiter) in post-mediaeval Latin. μηδείς (talk) 03:12, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Familiar forms of names in German

I once saw a German detective series episode where a local of southern Germany (possibly Bavaria) told the police that around here, people familiar with each other mention their names in opposite order, such as Ich bin der Wimmler Sepp. This immediately struck me as familiar with a Finnish custom for familiar people, such as Niinistön Sauli instead of Sauli Niinistö or Halosen Tarja instead of Tarja Halonen. This is used pretty much everywhere in Finland, but strictly only between people already familiar with each other. What makes it different from the German use is that the surname is in the genitive case, such as "Niinistö's Sauli" or "Halonen's Tarja", whereas in German the surname seems to be in the standard case. Is this way of addressing really used in Germany? If so, where? And how common is it? JIP | Talk 20:31, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

There's a little bit on this at German name#Order of names and use of articles. --Viennese Waltz 05:58, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

I have never encountered this; but in the example above I took "der Wimmler" as genitive plural. --ColinFine (talk) 16:38, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Colin, "der Wimmler" would be nominative singular, a bit unpolite and colloquial, "der Peter", or "der Präsident" would be ok. - Fritz Jörn (talk) 09:09, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

So Sepp's wife might say something like Ich bin die Wimmler Anne. (nominative singular feminine) rather than Ich bin der Wimmler Anne. (genitive plural)? -- 162.238.240.55 (talk) 12:15, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

The more south you go, the more people say Familyname Givenname. Bavaria, Austria, South Tyrol, all say: der Wimmer Sepp, especially when speaking dialect. In lists you might see a comma, to make it clear: Wimmer, Josef. But Josef Wimmer in "high German", in newspapers, written language. — Fritz Jörn (talk) 08:25, 5 June 2015 (UTC)