Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 February 2
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February 2
[edit]Identify Chinese vs. Japanese
[edit]During the late 1990s, Delta Air Lines had airsickness bags with the phrase "Occupied" in eight languages, of which two of them are comprised entirely of Chinese characters: 留座 (Line 6) and 使用中 (Line 8). A sample image of this bag can be found here. On the bag, I can identify the other languages: Line 1 is English, Line 2 is French, Line 3 is German, Line 4 is Spanish, Line 5 is Italian, and Line 7 is Korean. However, due to the lack of native Japanese characters, I can't seem to identify which of the aforementioned lines (6 and 8) is Chinese and which is Japanese. Can someone help me out here? 98.116.73.98 (talk) 10:17, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
- 留座 doesn't make sense in Mandarin, whereas 使用中 does. I don't know Japanese, but by process of elimination, Line 6 appears to be Japanese, whereas Line 8 is Chinese. Marco polo (talk) 14:49, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
- Really? With over 3 million Ghits, it can hardly be nonsense. KägeTorä - (影虎) (Chin Wag) 21:12, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
- 留座 is not Japanese. 使用中 is used in Japan. Oda Mari (talk) 18:05, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
- Even Google Translate understands 留座 as Chinese. It may not make sense here as Chinese (I'm not qualified to judge), but then neither does "occupied" make sense here as English. For that matter, the Japanese doesn't make sense here: 使用中 means "in use" (being vomited into); more appropriate would be 使用後, "after use" (although alternatives are also available). (But don't take my word for what is or isn't suitable in Japanese. Unlike me, Oda Mari knows what she's talking about.) ¶ Aren't all of these simply filched from explanations on toilet doors or similar? -- Hoary (talk) 23:34, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
- Actually, I believe the phrase "occupied" as used here is intended to mean "this seat is in use by someone" - a passenger would place this bag on his/her seat when he/she gets up to go elsewhere in the plane in order to prevent others from taking that seat. 98.116.73.98 (talk) 03:16, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, that was my impression, as nobody is actually inside the bag. It's just a courtesy sign to say 'somebody already sits here'. If the bag were used for its main purpose (i.e. for vomiting), it would be taken away immediately by the cabin crew and replaced with a new one (health and safety purposes). Therefore, there would be no need to have a sign on the bag saying effectively 'this bag is full of vomit'. Based on the premise that 使用中 refers to the bag itself, as most people above seem to think, this would mean '[this bag] is being used', despite the fact that most of the time they aren't being used, but the words are permanently printed on the bags. I am pretty sure they are intended for placing on the seat for when the person who sits there is not actually there.
- 使用済 would be appropriate for used bags in Japanese. 使用中 is the word seen on toilet doors or room doors. Oda Mari (talk) 19:03, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, but, Mari, there is no button on the bag to change its status to 'has already been used', is there, so really, it is as said before, for use as a sign to say the seat is occupied. KägeTorä - (影虎) (Chin Wag) 12:34, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
- 使用済 would be appropriate for used bags in Japanese. 使用中 is the word seen on toilet doors or room doors. Oda Mari (talk) 19:03, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
- Sorry, folks. I guess I am seeing the limits of my Mandarin. 留座 doesn't appear in my (apparently inadequate) Mandarin dictionary app or print dictionary, whereas 使用中 definitely makes perfect sense in Mandarin. I guess 使用中 is bilingual and 留座 is a Mandarin term not covered in some dictionaries. Marco polo (talk) 16:28, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
- It doesn't really matter why the bag is "occupied". 留座 is supposed to be Japanese and 使用中 Chinese. Since you are arguing about the translations, just call them bad translations, but this has nothing to do with what languages are supposedly represented here. And the Google translate thing is not a valid argument to distinguish both languages since Kanji/Hanzi are always understood as Chinese unless Kana appear or the phrase looks exclusively Japanese. I have two strong arguments which don't refer to the meanings at all: Firstly, 留座 uses the East Asian gothic typeface, which is standard in Japanese, while 使用中 uses the Song typeface popular in China. It's not only the typeface, there are also differences between Chinese and Japanese standardized variants, which are often lost due to the Unicode Han unification. So although the gothic typeface also exists in Chinese, a Chinese 留 would never have these prolonged strokes (not talking about the normal serifs) which make people think the character has more strokes than it actually has since everything is more detached. Look at the Japanese section, upper left corner of 留. This and some other characteristics really define if a character is Chinese or Japanese. Secondly, the link you provided has a second image showing the other side (you have to scroll down). Now you have a longer phrase, which makes it clear that the one above Korean is not Chinese, not even traditional Chinese (if someone brings up this) because the double dots in 辶 aren't even used in Taiwan anymore. Morever the syntax wouldn't make sense in Chinese. --2.245.131.73 (talk) 01:56, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
- You may wish to reconsider your judgment after seeing this link, which I just discovered. It has a more complete (albeit low-quality) image of the other side, and the contents of lines 6 and 8 on these images should speak for themselves. 98.116.73.98 (talk) 08:03, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
- Anyways, the slightly different variants do exist. Someone just messed uped everything. --2.245.197.68 (talk) 12:50, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
- You may wish to reconsider your judgment after seeing this link, which I just discovered. It has a more complete (albeit low-quality) image of the other side, and the contents of lines 6 and 8 on these images should speak for themselves. 98.116.73.98 (talk) 08:03, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
- It doesn't really matter why the bag is "occupied". 留座 is supposed to be Japanese and 使用中 Chinese. Since you are arguing about the translations, just call them bad translations, but this has nothing to do with what languages are supposedly represented here. And the Google translate thing is not a valid argument to distinguish both languages since Kanji/Hanzi are always understood as Chinese unless Kana appear or the phrase looks exclusively Japanese. I have two strong arguments which don't refer to the meanings at all: Firstly, 留座 uses the East Asian gothic typeface, which is standard in Japanese, while 使用中 uses the Song typeface popular in China. It's not only the typeface, there are also differences between Chinese and Japanese standardized variants, which are often lost due to the Unicode Han unification. So although the gothic typeface also exists in Chinese, a Chinese 留 would never have these prolonged strokes (not talking about the normal serifs) which make people think the character has more strokes than it actually has since everything is more detached. Look at the Japanese section, upper left corner of 留. This and some other characteristics really define if a character is Chinese or Japanese. Secondly, the link you provided has a second image showing the other side (you have to scroll down). Now you have a longer phrase, which makes it clear that the one above Korean is not Chinese, not even traditional Chinese (if someone brings up this) because the double dots in 辶 aren't even used in Taiwan anymore. Morever the syntax wouldn't make sense in Chinese. --2.245.131.73 (talk) 01:56, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, that was my impression, as nobody is actually inside the bag. It's just a courtesy sign to say 'somebody already sits here'. If the bag were used for its main purpose (i.e. for vomiting), it would be taken away immediately by the cabin crew and replaced with a new one (health and safety purposes). Therefore, there would be no need to have a sign on the bag saying effectively 'this bag is full of vomit'. Based on the premise that 使用中 refers to the bag itself, as most people above seem to think, this would mean '[this bag] is being used', despite the fact that most of the time they aren't being used, but the words are permanently printed on the bags. I am pretty sure they are intended for placing on the seat for when the person who sits there is not actually there.
- Actually, I believe the phrase "occupied" as used here is intended to mean "this seat is in use by someone" - a passenger would place this bag on his/her seat when he/she gets up to go elsewhere in the plane in order to prevent others from taking that seat. 98.116.73.98 (talk) 03:16, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
- Both 留座 and 使用中 are intelligible Chinese. The first means "[this] seat [is] reserved". (I would expect to see it only on some kind of card indicating a table or seat is reserved.) The second one means "in use". --71.185.179.35 (talk) 01:10, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
- This. Both make perfect sense in Chinese. --Bowlhover (talk) 09:32, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
