Language desk
< February 12	<< Jan \| February \| Mar >>	February 14 >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

February 13

Name translations

I don't understand why, in the biographies of people who lived long ago, their names will sound so non-native, and in the biographies of contemporary people, their names will sound more native to the individual's language. Examples include Christopher Columbus, Phillip Melanchthon, Queen Isabella of Spain, or Nicolaus Copernicus. The Spanish form of "Isabella" is "Isabel"; however, I think the English variant is really "Elizabeth". "Isabella" sounds too Italian. Phillip's birth surname, Schwartzerdt, sounds German, but somehow he gets a Greek translation of his surname. Were these names just for professional correspondence and recognition? Or were these names used in their personal lives too? 71.79.234.132 (talk) 16:12, 13 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In the Renaissance and early modern periods in Europe, some scholars Latinized/Classicized their names, while it was very common to translate forenames between national languages. As late as the early 20th century, it was very common for immigrants to the U.S. to informally Anglify their names ("Johann" becomes "John" etc.). Now that this is less often done, we have discrepancies between article titles such as Philip V of Spain and Felipe VI of Spain...

-- AnonMoos (talk) 16:19, 13 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Johann and John are both derived from the Greek version of the Hebrew name. So, it's not much of a stretch. A Chinese or Japanese immigrant to the U.S. would probably borrow an English name out of convenience, even though the English name does not share any common root as the original Chinese or Japanese name. The new English name may be easier to pronounce by native English speakers and may have linguistic gender.

I think the scholars from the Renaissance and early modern periods of Europe also applied the naming tradition in science. Medical terms and scientific names for species owe a lot to Latin and Greek. 71.79.234.132 (talk) 18:52, 13 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In the case of Christopher Columbus, at least, his real name was Cristoforo Colombo, not just Anglicized, but also Spanishized and Portugese-ized, all stemming from the Latinized Christophorus Columbus. His given name means "Christ-bearer".[1] To Spanish students he is Cristobal Colon, and the country Colombia was named for him. (The n turns into an m when followed by a b.) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:07, 14 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Pronunciation of "vacances" in France and Netherlands

I was trying to find out how to pronounce the French word "vacances" and was surprised to find that the French and the and French-speaking Dutch pronounce it so much differently[2]. To me, the French pronunciation starts off with a "V" sound, while the French speaker from the Netherlands pronounced it with a "B" sound.

Is there such a difference? Or am I mishearing it? (I don't know any French.)

If there is indeed a difference, does it cause any intelligibility problems? WinterWall (talk) 17:13, 13 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

French is not a language spoken natively by any significant population in the Netherlands. As such, no 'Dutch French' dialect exists, and French speakers in the Netherlands are either immigrants or speak it as a second language. I listened to the samples, and I hear the same thing. No idea why she would use a "B" instead of a "V", that is in any case not typical for Dutch speakers nor is it taught in French classes in the Netherlands. - Lindert (talk) 17:36, 13 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You can basically pronounce words from any language for Forvo and not have any affiliation with that language at all. [b] and [v] are close to each other, the difference being two lips (bilabial) and upper teeth + lower lip (labiodental). That's why those sounds merged in Spanish to something inbetween [β]. This sound seems to exist in some Dutch regions too. The standard Dutch [ʋ] is a unstable as well as [β] according to the article. These inbetween sounds could be understood as either clear, stable counterpart by untrained ears. As for intelligibility, "bacances" is not a word in French. You may be understood, but it just sounds odd. As already pointed out, there is no Dutch French (someone from Flanders speaking French at most), so you shouldn't imitate it. --2.245.170.168 (talk) 19:30, 13 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Initial "b" and "v" are not distinguished in Spanish. Perhaps the Dutchman was from the Spanish Netherlands? μηδείς (talk) 22:03, 13 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It was a (Dutch?) woman actually, and she didn't sound that old. - Lindert (talk) 22:10, 13 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It sounds like /v/ to me. —Tamfang (talk) 08:33, 14 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Just in case: Some French varieties such as Occitan (Langue d'Oc), Gascon language, ... do feature betacism (/b/ and /v/ merging into one sound) and (confirmed by some googling) their speakers look forward to "bacances". (But these languages are not spoken near the Belgian border). ---Sluzzelin talk 08:55, 14 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

By "Dutch French", are you referring to Walloons from Belgium? --TammyMoet (talk) 11:16, 14 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Are we sure, Sluzzelin, they are not just looking forward to vaccances [3]? μηδείς (talk) 03:42, 15 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]