Language desk
< November 11	<< Oct \| November \| Dec >>	November 13 >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

November 12

Another quick translation from French

Me again, looking for a translation of the following: "Au moutier vois, dont suis paroissiene,/Paradis peint ou sont harpes et luths." From François Villon's "Ballad pour Prier Notre Dame". Google Translate's even worse than usual on this one, though perhaps it's to do with the text being a few centuries old. Thanks in advance! – Arms & Hearts (talk) 06:38, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"I see, in the church of which I am a parishioner, a painted paradise where there are harps and lutes." Moutier is an old variant form of monastère, "monastery", but here it seems to just mean "church". Lesgles (talk) 07:23, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, I am impressed, Lesgles, I am French and I didn't even know that word moutiers (appart from the town in Savoie). Villon is always extremely hard for me to understand. --14:52, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

It is impressive. There may be something parallel in the meanings of minster in English. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:06, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I can't claim to have always known it. :) For words like these I use the Trésor de la langue française or the Dictionnaires d'autrefois. Minster does seem to be related, also Münster in Germany (but not Munster in Ireland). Lesgles (talk) 17:21, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The OP quotation is in modernized French. See here the Ballade pour prier Notre-Dame in Les oeuvres de Maistre Françoys Villon published in 1532 (/ Aumóftier vois dót ie fuis prochaine, / Paraiz voy ou font harpes & lucz, / . Even for a French, it's very difficult to understand (for a nonspecialist) — AldoSyrt (talk) 21:36, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Fascinating stuff, thanks everyone! – Arms & Hearts (talk) 22:13, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Whinging and whining

As an Australian I'm very familiar with both the above words. They are virtually synonymous, with the former possibly being in more common use. But more recently I've begun to get the impression, partly from the behaviour of spell checkers, etc., that whinging isn't all that common elsewhere. Is this true? HiLo48 (talk) 16:21, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As an American I've only ever seen it once: Little Whinging. 2001:18E8:2:1020:B456:8DEC:C66B:43CE (talk) 16:35, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Do you mean as in "Whingeing Pom"? I can confirm that us Poms are very much au fait with the concept of whingeing. We spell it different though (at least I've only ever seen it spelt with an e in the middle). --TammyMoet (talk) 16:41, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, whinge certainly demands an e, but my spell checker doesn't like that either. Not sure whether the e should disappear in whingeing/whinging, or not. HiLo48 (talk) 22:59, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As an American I see it frequently in the weekly British magazine The Economist, but I've probably never once encountered it outside that context. Duoduoduo (talk) 16:52, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

American here, unfamiliar with the word. In Harry Potter I think I just assumed it was made up, and pronounced it "winging" in my mind. The OED lists both spellings and says it originated in Scottish and northern English as a variant of whine (earliest quotation from 1150). Lesgles (talk) 17:10, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As an American, I never heard it until my mid-20s when a British friend used it once and had to explain it to me. Pais (talk) 17:32, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Like my American neighbours, in Canada I've only ever encountered it through British media. I've never heard it used in any other context. I don't even know how it's pronounced. Mingmingla (talk) 18:00, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Whinge rhymes with "hinge". Alansplodge (talk) 18:06, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's the creaky sound the hinges of the Tin Man makes when he whines and cringes. μηδείς (talk) 18:19, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I first saw the word in a review of No Job for a Lady, which said that Penelope Keith's accent – "Surrey with a whinge on top" – made her not entirely credible as a Labour MP. —Tamfang (talk) 20:03, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've come across it rarely in the States, but it is not totally unknown. --Trovatore (talk) 20:40, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I just did a search of Academic Search Premier for 'whinge' or 'whinging' in article title, and got 895 results. Of the first 50 of these, three were in US publications: Marketing Week, Printing World, and New Statesman. All three articles were about England or Scotland. This unscientific survey is consistent with my experience; in the United States, the term is, as Trovatore puts it, "not totally unknown," but on the infrequent occasions when it is used, it tends to be a signal that parts of the English-speaking world other than the US are being discussed, or attention at least is being called to them. One might suggest that someone is whinging to imply that their complaint characterizes them as stereotypically "Canadian" (whatever that means), say. --some jerk on the Internet (talk) 21:46, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Whinge and whine" seems to belong to a class of expressions, other members of which include "chop and change", "cut and run", "live and learn" etc. I'm sure there's a name for these. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 22:02, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

WHAAOE, as always - Siamese twins. Tevildo (talk) 22:50, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's thank you from me and thank you from him. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 03:56, 13 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

WHAT!?!? Penelope Keith a whinger? If she's a whinger, would we all were. (Were God a woman, I'd cast her to play him.) μηδείς (talk) 23:29, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

_

The word "whinge" comes from Old English hwinsian and has been in English since 1150, so I wonder why it wasn't carried to America by the Scots. It has been used by Robbie Burns, James Joyce, Samuel Beckett and Beryl Bainbridge (amongst others). I didn't realise that it was rare in America until I read the comments above. Dbfirs 19:02, 13 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Amongst others" -- That's another word I never hear in America except in a non-American context. Duoduoduo (talk) 19:36, 13 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Amongst may be rare, but it's used in America. "Whinge" sounds made-up, twee, almost Prince George, Duke of Kentish. μηδείς (talk) 00:27, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The first time I heard "whinge" in Oz was in a sentence like "Stop yer bloody whinging, ya bloody fuckwit." When shouted by a huge pipefitter in a blue singlet, it's not particularly "twee." Zoonoses (talk) 04:44, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, kinda like the construction worker from The Village People? Actually, I've never heard anyone say it, but when I do come acrost it, it's not Johnny Proud and Harry Spargo boxing, but Sir Hallam and his longtime companion the Duke of Kent that come to mind. μηδείς (talk) 05:09, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As a Brit, I think I do use the terms somewhat interchangably, but whining does carry an implication of a certain irritating squeaky tone of voice that the whinger has used, whereas, pedantically, whinging can be done in any tone of voice. The reason I say I use the terms interchangably is that both words tend to be used perjoratively, when hyperbole is not only common, but can be cathartic. Think of an eight year old wanting to stay up late for whining and a grumpy colleague whinging about having to stay late one day. Incidentally, I'd naturally use both terms in the infinitive without an "e", but I may be in error. --Dweller (talk) 10:37, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'd put the "e" in whingeing, but that's only a personal preference to avoid confusion with winging. Both spellings are correct. Dbfirs 18:00, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]