Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 September 27

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September 27

Rhotic-related stuff, 'r's where they shouldn't be

In this Youtube video, near the end, Mr. Lumberjack sings "just like my dear Papa", only he pronounces "Papa" with an "r" at the end, as if it were "Papar". Intrusive R seems related, but not quite the same thing, as he doesn't say anything immediately after "Papa". I think I've heard (in non-rhotic accents) similar things before (i.e. at the end of words, but not followed by another vowel sound, so not an intrusive R), but I'm not 100% sure as I haven't really paid attention to it. Is there a name for this phenomenon? --superioridad ^(discusión) 03:45, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Such a phenomenon is common in New England English, which has such words as "idear" for "idea" and "ar-EE-er" for "area", and such formations are not limited to intervocalic Rs. See here and here. This page has some discussion on the ideosyncracies of non-rhotic accents and the reappearance of the R in certain places.This blog indicates that intrusive-R appears in some words even at the end of sentences, so I don't think it has to be between vowel sounds. --Jayron32 04:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

As anyone old enough to remember President Kennedy talking about our problems with "Cuber" will recall. Deor (talk) 04:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, and that along with another word that he used often, led to this fanciful joke: "We must get the Russians out of Cuber, with viguh!" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:09, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

"A phenomena"? Ouch. --Trovatore (talk) 04:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

It's hypercorrection. Michael Palin is a non-rhotic speaker putting on a rhotic accent, which means he has to pronounce r's where he normally doesn't. He's just overdone it a little. --Nicknack009 (talk) 06:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Resolved

Using Monty Python as a reliable source for accents is not ideal. Here is an "outrageous" one from their quest for the Holy Grail. HiLo48 (talk) 07:16, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I would call this R (in "my Papa[r]" and in "Cuba[r]" and the like): an intrusive R, although it's not followed by a vowel. The phrase intrusive R just means that the speaker inserts an unspelled R after a vowel (usually after a schwa) that ends a word. Really, we have been taught that the intrusive R is also followed by a vowel, but this is just because - the very phenonemon of an intrusive R - exists usually in non-rhotic accents, in which no R can be sounded unless it's followed by a vowel; However this is not essential in defining the very intrusive R, but rather in defining the non-rhotic accents only, so: if one hears a redundant R in rhotic accents, they still may call it: an intrusive R - although it's not followed by a vowel.

Note that some rhotic accents have another wrong R: one that is spelled as an L - before a nasal consonant; e.g. Colonel (=curnl), Lincoln (=lincurn), Malcolm (=malcurm), and the like. I wouldn't call this R - "intrusive", because it really does appear in the spelling (yet as an L - rather than as an R), while an intrusive R can't be traced to the spelling.

HOOTmag (talk) 08:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Colonel is a special case; it is not pronounced the way it's spelled. I think the pronunciation comes from somewhere else (possibly Spanish Coronel).

As for Licoln and Malcolm, there is no R sound in those words whatsoever. --Trovatore (talk) 09:24, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Some rhotic accents pronounce: Lincurn, Malcurm (just as they pronounce: Curnl). You have been to the Midwest USA, haven't you? HOOTmag (talk) 09:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I have, and I have never heard that. I think you're just wrong. If I recall correctly, you're not a native speaker. --Trovatore (talk) 10:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

No, I'm not, and I do remember: Malkurm, and Linkurn (in the Midwest), which sounded weird to my sensitive ears. Now, I have also found this (p. 430). HOOTmag (talk) 10:41, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

If you look at the actual scans of the book (pages 429–30), rather than the OCR'ed TXT file, you'll see it's "Linkum", not "Linkurn", both times. (The TXT has "Linkum" correctly the first time but the scanno "Linkurn" the second time. Angr (talk) 16:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Look at this testimomy: "I'm a native of Washington, and it drives me crazy when people put an R in there. and also perplexes me. Do they say Linkern instead of Lincoln?...My dad, a native of Missouri, but lived in Washington for 40 years, still says Worshington".

And also at this testimony: When he talked about Lincoln, he pronounced the name, “Linkern” as was common in Illinois at the time.

Further, Abraham Lincoln himself pronounced his name "linkern", or "linkhorn", as indicated here, and also his father's name (Thomas Lincoln) was pronounced that way, as indicated here, p. 266.

HOOTmag (talk) 19:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

This blog post calls it 'hyper-rhoticity' and describes it as something that happens when non-rhotic speakers try on a rhotic accent. It also points out that JFK used a standard intrusive R, and when 'Cuba' was not followed by a vowel sound he pronounced it without an R at the end. --superioridad ^(discusión) 10:17, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Nicknack009 had it right, it is hypercorrection, of which adding extra arrs is a textbook example. See here at Accents of English

As for the "Lincorn" case, I can't say I have evere heard such a thing, but in my dialect only is pronounced oln-ly" with an anticipatory ell.

I've heard olny. HOOTmag (talk) 19:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I would olnly take olny to be a reference to the Olney neighbourhood of Philadelphia.μηδείς (talk) 20:06, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Maybe that's why, when I met Simon Furman in June 2010, and he talked about how artists would draw the stories he wrote, it sounded to me like he was saying they would drawr them. I just assumed that since Simon Furman is British, he should know how to pronounce English properly. JIP | Talk 19:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Well I'm a native British English speaker, and I think "drawr" is correct. But then I don't speak RP, I'm from the Black Country. Dialect and accent count for a lot in British English. --TammyMoet (talk) 19:44, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

For another example of an intrusive R in a non-rhotic speaker, listen to John Lennon in A day in the life. At 0:45: "He blew his mind out in a ca(h)", but at 1:13 "I sawra film today oh boy". --NorwegianBlue ^talk 21:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

My favorite musical Intrusive R is in Billy Joel's "Scenes from an Italian Restaurant", where he sings the story of Brenderaneddy (Brenda and Eddie) --Jayron32 23:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I (learner of English) was enjoying it very much when a British sports commentator was referring to this summer's Copa América tournament as "Copa Ramerica". --Theurgist (talk) 21:03, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

zebra line as a media jargon?

Is there a meaning related to media for zebra line? Has whiteline got a meaning related to printing, like the white space between lines? --117.253.199.71 (talk) 12:27, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Bizness/Bijiness in Murakami's A Wild Sheep Chase

"Bizness, the man enunciated, which marked him as a foreign-born Japanese; most Japanese Japanese will say bijiness." -- A Wild Sheep Chase by Haruki Murakami, Chapter 8, translated to English by Alfred Birnbaum

How is this sentiment rendered in the original Japanese? Does Murakami use Romaji to write bijiness and bizness, or does he indicate the Strange Man's foreignness by some other means? --146.141.1.91 (talk) 17:21, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure, but I think he probably used katakana and wrote ビズネス/bizness and ビジネス/bijiness. Oda Mari (talk) 08:51, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

"Bugger off"

Being American, I'm always slightly amused when I hear this expression. I realize it stems from "buggery", i.e. anal sex or sex with an animal. Our article bugger says that in Canadian, Australian and New Zealander English, this term has lost its expletive force, and is now regarded as slightly comedic. Is this to say that in British English, telling someone to "bugger off" is seriously offensive? Joefromrandb (talk) 20:13, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

It is my standard phrase upon answering the phone to those who call when I am sat at the table eating dinner. μηδείς (talk) 20:15, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Its not something you'd say in front of the children but not especially rude. Wee Curry Monster talk 20:17, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

It is not to be interpreted literally. When someone says "fuck off", that has nothing to do with sexual intercourse. When someone says "piss off", that has nothing to do with urination. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 20:18, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

(ec x2) It depends on context, of course, but I'd generally think of it as slightly comic and not particularly offensive; certainly much less so than "fuck off". AndrewWTaylor (talk) 20:19, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm agreement with the others here: not something you'd want your children saying, but harmless in the actual swearing stakes. But like "sod off" really. (Hence why The Two Ronnies got away with their dancing "so doth"/"sod off" pun.) Wiktionary seems to agree. Unlike that, though, it's got two slightly different senses: a direct one, which can be quite rude depending on the tone of voice, and in the third person, as in the Wiktionary quotation "We tried to catch him, but he had already buggered off." This is, of course, not unlike similar phrases. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 20:26, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Dylan Thomas famously got away with calling the village that is the setting for his Under Milk Wood Llareggub, it was definitely unacceptable in 1954. Mikenorton (talk) 21:06, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I've been thinking about how I use "bugger off", and how it compares with similar expressions broadly meaning "go away". I think "bugger off" has a slightly stronger feel to it, but not so much that it is profane, so much milder than "fuck off". It includes a bit of a "don't come back for a long time" meaning, so corresponds well to Medeis' usage with unwanted phone callers. I may well have used it in the same situation myself. Interestingly, in the circles I mix in, it's very much still an expression used mostly by males, whereas "fuck off", while stronger, seems to have become very co-ed these days.

I wonder if anyone has made a thorough study of the wider use of the word "bugger"? I had a big debate with someone recently about whether "bugger all" meant not very much (my thoughts), or none at all. In describing a person we have the distinct difference in meaning between a "silly old bugger" (an eccentric friend?) and a "stupid bugger" (someone considered very silly, not popular). One does have to be careful. It's a very flexible word. HiLo48 (talk) 21:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I think it's a British thing. The sheer absurdity of it makes it humorous that it dulls the insult somewhat. It's certainly less unfriendly than "fuck off".-- Obsidi♠n Soul 04:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

There are alternative derivations which come from either Bulgaria, or "blackguard". This site (which I've not read in full, so caveat) gives an interesting alternative derivation. This one also gives another one. --TammyMoet (talk) 07:40, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Bulgaria is not an alternative derivation. Bugger derives from the presumed favorite sport of the Bulgars. μηδείς (talk) 23:08, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

It originated as a somewhat slanderous accusation against the Bogomils, one of several neo-Manichean medieval religious movements (along with the Paulicians, Cathars, etc.). AnonMoos (talk) 23:21, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Wood trimmer (person)

What exactly does a wood trimmer do, and what exactly is his workplace? Googling mostly results in pictures of various tools for trimming wood, but that's not what I'm after. I'm asking because I need synonyms to, and be sure I understand, what a "wood trimmer" is. The reason I ask is that there is a disease called "Wood-trimmer's disease", which is a variant of allergic alveolitis, caused by IgG antibodies to molds that presumably thrive in the wood-trimmer's workplace. Links to relevant workplaces (with pictures if possible) would be nice! Thanks! --NorwegianBlue ^talk 20:49, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

A sawmill worker? From here. Mikenorton (talk) 20:58, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

(ec) Formerly, a person would rough trim a log by splitting it, use an adze to make it flat, then a plane to make it smooth. I think that's a job now done almost exclusively by machines in a lumber mill, so now I'd look at people who work there. StuRat (talk) 21:00, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks both! That was my feeling too. And the reference was really excellent, Mikenorton! --NorwegianBlue ^talk 21:20, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Name translation

Why do some names have translations in lots of other languages, such as John/Jean/Juan/Johann/Jan/etc., while many others don't? --70.134.53.27 (talk) 21:00, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Older names are likely to have spread to more languages. In the case of "John", the name goes back at least to John the Baptist. StuRat (talk) 21:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

It depends some on whether the name entered the language before major pronounciation changes occured in said language, or more recently. For example, English experienced the Great Vowel Shift during which all words changed how they were pronounced; a name which entered the English language prior to the great vowel shift would have had its vowel sounds shifted by it, a name which entered more recently would have been pronounced more like the language from which it entered English. This is but one example from one language. If you multiply these sorts of changes by the hundreds and hundreds of different dialects and languages, and consider every time a name gets "borrowed" from one language to another, you can see where such a complex melange can lead to many variations on the same name. Consider two fairly common English names, Jacob and James. Those have the same root name, and are also cognate with the Francophone name Jacques and the Iberian names Jaime and Diego. Jack, which sounds like it should be part of this family, is actually part of the John family, which also includes names like Sean and Johannes and Ian and Ivan. In the modern world, you can get an amazing cross polination of names, where a name can be assumed from another language untranslated. Thus, you get wonderful names like Vladimir Guerrero and Juan Trippe, despite the fact that the former has no Russian background and the latter had almost no Hispanic background. --Jayron32 21:19, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Or Boris Johnson, who has Turkish and German heritage, but no Russian, as far as I can tell. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 21:53, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Interesting that to Anglophones naming your son Joshua is kosher but Jesus a bit queer. μηδείς (talk) 00:52, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Our Hebrew teacher talked about that actually. Apparently no one names their kid Yeshua in Israel (same name as Joshua and Jesus), probably because of that association. Yeshua is of course an ancient name so it's got many different forms. It means salvation in Hebrew btw. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 29 Elul 5771 01:51, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

It's considered disrespectful in anglo culture to name one's son Jesus, except by the parents of James Jesus Angleton, and also in most European cultures. The big exception is hispano countries, where the Jesuses are a dime a dozen. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 03:48, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Not only that, but using Maria as a middle name for Spanish-speaking men is not considered unusual, as with Jesús María Lacruz, for example. That also brings up Maria and its many variations - another biblical name, of course. Meanwhile, Moses and Muhammed are common names in Judaism and Islam respectively. Why the proscription against "Jesus" in non-Spanish culture is hard to figure. Also, in English, announcers always use the Spanish pronunciation "hay-SOOS" for athletes such as Jesus Alou, even with the spelling being the same as in English. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:07, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

English announcers use the pronounciation favored by the holder of the name, which is probably as it should be. (or a close approximation. Patrick Roy was famously hard for anglophone announcers to get correct, because the French "R" is hard for such speakers, so it usually defaulted to "Wah", but at least they tried). It would be very odd for anouncers to choose a different pronouciation for any name than the one perfered by the name holder. Indeed, if someone introduced themselves to you and pronounced their name a certain way, would you change their name for them, or use their own name as they themselves say it? --Jayron32 04:19, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

The BBC are famous for this. They have foreign correspondants sent to countries to give us the latest news on developments there, and not one of them can get the pronuciations of the names of the people and places they are reporting on right. It's incredible. There was a lot of BBC news stories about Liu Xiaobo a few months ago, and we had three different correspondents, and three different pronunciations, all of which were incorrect (two sounded French, and one just alien). If they report about Kim Jong Il, they give him a French sounding name, because he's foreign, so he must be French. The BBC's news website has guidelines on pronuciations of foriegn names in the news, and I am sure their correspondents either don't read this part of the website, or just find it too hard to understand. Why does Beijing need a French sounding name? Why can't it just be pronounced the way it's written? That is much closer to the original. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 01:02, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Why can't they get Maria Sharapova's name right, then? It's not even hard to say. English has lots of words stressed on the third-to-last syllable. I can give them a little more rhythm on Kournikova; stressing a four-syllable word on the first syllable is counterintuitive to Anglophones. --Trovatore (talk) 21:42, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Except that in hispanic culture, Jesus Christ is usually "Jesucristo" which is seen as a distinct name reserved for him. In that way, the hispanophone name "Jesús" is more like the usage of "Joshua" in English than Jesus; the name "Jesucristo" would be seen as an odd choice for a first name in hispanophone cultures the same way Jesus would be in anglophone cultures (unless, you are Levon and you like the sound)... --Jayron32 04:07, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

The name Christopher (given name) is also one with many variations. It means "follower of Christ" or something like that. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:14, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

A most useful piece of information to know should I find myself having to troll an atheist named Chris. :p In Jewish cultures, many many people are named after Patriarchs and Matriarchs. Just shows a different attitude. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 29 Elul 5771 04:20, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

However, they're not usually named for their parents. I hasten to add that Moses and Muhammed are not considered to be manifestations of God, while Jesus is. Regarding atheists, Christopher Hitchens certainly fills the bill. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:59, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Bugsy, you've made a false assumption and then compounded it. Christopher (given name) tells us Christopher means "the one who bears Christ (in his soul)" (cf. the legend of him carrying the Christ child across the river), not a "follower of Christ" per se. Hitchens's parents didn't know how he was going to turn out, poor things. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 09:52, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Getting back to the original question, the names that have many different forms in different languages are usually the names with the longest history of continuous use in those languages. In European languages, these are mostly the names of the most important Christian saints, whose original form was Greek (or Aramaic or Hebrew). The original form has evolved distinctly as part of each language in which it is used over a period of 2,000 years. I think that you can find a similar variety in certain names derived from the Sanskrit names of heroes from the Hindu canon across Greater India. Names that are much the same across different languages, as Jayron suggests, are names that entered those languages recently, or that entered the language repeatedly from a source such as the Bible, without becoming "naturalized" as a name in that language. Names in this category would include English names that have recently become fashionable in other European languages, such as Kevin, or biblical names that go in and out of fashion over the centuries, such as Joshua. Marco polo (talk) 13:20, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Kevin, of course, is not an English name, but an Irish one. It's the anglicized spelling of Caoimhín. Angr (talk) 14:17, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

So, I am told the name 'Colin' derives from Irish 'Calum', and also from French 'Colin' and a bunch of others. Will we ever know which came first? KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 00:42, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Our page Colin (given name) says it's "an Anglicized form of the Gaelic name "Cailean" or "Coileáin". There are several other alternatives, but I imagine it became popular with English speakers after several well known Scottish characters such as Colin Campbell, 1st Baron Clyde. The heirs to the Duchy of Argyll were alternately called Archibald and Colin for centuries, so I doubt much French influence there. Alansplodge (talk) 18:02, 30 September 2011 (UTC)