Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 January 29

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January 29

Critical period for language acquisition

I've heard that after this 'magical window' for language acquisition the synapses responsible begin to die and language acquisition becomes harder. My question is, is there any way (in theory) to prolong this period? This is only a hypothetical question, so practical considerations such as money needed, ethics, etc may be neglected. 24.92.70.160 (talk) 00:32, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

From my Google search for Critical period for language acquisition, I found many results, including the following.

• The age factor in second language ... - Google Books
• A Critical Period for Second Language Acquisition? A Status Review

Someone may wish to spend time in studying them.

—Wavelength (talk) 00:57, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

The question involves some confusion, I think. Critical windows have been demonstrated in animals for some basic abilities such as binocular vision, and we know something about the neural mechanisms that are involved. There is no critical period for language acquisition, in any strict sense. It does seem to be generally true that children find it easier to acquire languages than adults, but we really don't know anything specific about the neural mechanisms that bring that about. (The citations above agree with what I just wrote, by the way.) Looie496 (talk) 04:11, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

While it's true that the question of whether there's a critical period for second language acquisition is heavily debated, as far as I know there is general consensus that there is definitely a critical period for first language acquisition. I think most linguists don't necessarily know much neurobiology, but in the neurobiological research on critical periods in general (not necessarily language-related ones) I think one of the hot topics that much research is implicating in critical periods is the growth of dendritic spines. (see particularly Dendritic spine#Plasticity.) rʨanaɢ (talk) 04:27, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Looie496 -- children below a certain age will tend to naturally acquire the grammar and basic vocabulary of any language they encounter which is commonly used in their everyday lives, without much need for conscious effortful learning; while those much beyond this age can only acquire a new language by means of such conscious effortful learning, and only a few will ever end up being able to speak the language without a foreign accent. In that sense, there is a definite discontinuity which is very well established scientifically. AnonMoos (talk) 05:44, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia has an article about neuroplasticity.—Wavelength (talk) 06:39, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

What I have heard (I think from a Derek Bickerton book) is that people who learn three or more languages as children don't lose the plasticity. The change seems to come with the onset of puberty otherwise. Little kids raised in multilingual environments can speak multiple languages fluently without even realizing that they are speaking multiple languages. They think you just have to talk to uncle Sasha a particular way, and to grandpa Pierre a different way. 11:00, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

French

What is the word for love in French that one would say to a family member (for example a parent or sibling). Aimer does not seem right, but neither does adorer. thanks. 24.92.70.160 (talk) 02:06, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

I think it is just aimer. As in English, I don't think there's a seperate word for romantic love and familial love. --Jayron32 02:33, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Tu me plaît plais. ("You please me.") See wikt:plaire.

—Wavelength (talk) 03:22, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

[I am correcting my answer which was formed misconjugatedly.

—Wavelength (talk) 03:32, 29 January 2011 (UTC)]

I agree with Jayron, it seems perfectly fine to say je t'aime. rʨanaɢ (talk) 05:47, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

And my understanding is that if you want to be clear that you aren't saying "I love you" in a romantic sense, you can say "Je t'aime bien". Not being French, I am just going on what I have learned, but that is what I was told. Falconus^{p t c} 03:42, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

In France we can say je t'aime to a family member. The sentence "Papa, maman, je vous aime !" is without any ambiguity. That is not the case with "plaire". We never say Tu me plais to our parents or children with the meaning I love you. The verb "plaire" has a lot of meanings that depends upon the context. A father to is son: Tu commences à me plaire ! means "you are irritating me!". A manager to one employee: Cet homme me plait means " I like this man". A man/woman to a man/woman: Tu me plais, could mean "I feel a [sexual] attraction for you". — AldoSyrt (talk) 11:51, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Atmoshphare & Enviroment

In English what is the difference between Atmoshphare and Enviroment......... ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.225.96.217 (talk) 14:32, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

See: wikt:Atmosphere and wikt:environment (note the correct spelling of both words). Interestingly, the capitalised wikt:Environment leads to a different entry. Astronaut (talk) 15:47, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

That's because Wiktionary, unlike Wikipedia, is case-sensitive. Both pages are at the lowercase form; the first one redirects. Lexicografía (talk) 21:42, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

The atmosphere is made of air. The environment includes everything around you. Looie496 (talk) 18:22, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps the question is about figurative usage. For example: What is the difference between work environment and work atmosphere? I thought I had an answer, in my own semantic gut, basically, like in Looie's reply, that "work environment" is more comprehensive, but includes "work atmosphere", which is more specifically about interpersonal issues, emotions, and communication, but after googling a bit, I found a lot of instances where the two are used synonymously. I'd like to hear what native English speakers have to say about that. ---Sluzzelin talk 19:00, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

When used figuratively, "environment" tends to take a more practical, concrete meaning, where "atmosphere" carries a softer, more emotional or sense meaning (and as you indicate, frequently includes interpersonal relationships). Sort of a "form versus function" distinction. For example when talking about how a chair affects the the "work environment", you'd likely talk about how comfortable it is, how portable it is, etc. Whereas in regards to "work atmosphere", you'd probably talk about the color, or the design style, and how it affects the appearance of the room. That said, there is a lot of overlap; appearance can affect how a space is used practically (a calming environment can improve productivity), and practical considerations can affect how something is perceived (you might think a chair is beautiful until you find it uncomfortable to sit in). If it helps any, I'd say "environment" is synonymous with "surroundings" and "atmosphere" is equivalent to "ambiance". -- 174.21.236.191 (talk) 19:32, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for that explanation! In German, we also talk about "Arbeitsklima". I thought, perhaps wrongly, that "work climate" wasn't a commonly used term in English, but it received google-hits in the same order of magnitude (hundred thousands) as "work atmosphere", though a couple of hundred thousands less. I also checked for "working ..." instead of "work ...", where "working climate" gets significantly less hits than "working atmosphere". ---Sluzzelin talk 07:26, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

I just want to endorse the perceptive distinction made by 174.21.... Marco polo (talk) 01:45, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Translation help

Hello; Can you translate this into English, please? Tout le monde! Ola, belle assemblée qui a envie de bouger Pour se laisser aller au rythme de l’année Allez allez allez, il faut en profiter C’est une bonne journée et on va la fêter Chouchou, faut te lever et bouger ton fessier Danser, collé serré pour un baiser salé Prends-moi par le côté, fais-moi ton déhanché Lala, ça va chauffer, je sens le truc monter —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.112.128.153 (talk) 23:21, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Replying on your talk...Google Translation. CTJF83 02:25, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

See also

• Jessy_Matador
• Allez Ola Olé --Shirt58 (talk) 02:41, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

I recommend against Google Translation. I have had some limited success with it, but I can easily get it to give very crazy results. Here is my translation of the first couple sentences, with the caveat that I have not yet mastered the French language. The phrase "collé... ...déhanché" is something I cannot figure out, so I will stop before that, and do the last two sentences (hopefully someone can fill in the rest). "Ola, the assembled beauty which wants to move; To let go to the rhythm of the year, go go go, one must benefit, it's a beautiful day and one must go celebrate it [skip] It will heat up; Lala, I feel the thing go up." Sorry I couldn't do better, but what I did, I feel confident in saying, makes a lot more sense than the Google Translate. Falconus^{p t c} 03:38, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

You are close but not quite. A complete translation is:

Everyone! [lit. all the world] Ola, beautiful body [as in a woman] that wants to move. To let oneself go to the rhythm of the year. Go, go, go, you must profit from it. It is a good day and we will celebrate it. Chouchou [term of endearment], you must get up and move your ass. To dance, sticky, squeezed by a dirty hug. Take my by the side, give me your hips. Lala, it is getting hot, I feel the thing rising

I was liberal with the translation to convey the effect in French (for example, "il faut" is technically "it is necessary that", and I turned déhanché, a verb form, into a noun, hips). Obviously there is alot of sexual imagery. 24.92.70.160 (talk) 04:11, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Just a few remarks. The meaning of "monde" in this case is "people", like in "il y a beaucoup de monde". Nonetheless we can translate "hello world!" by "bonjour tout le monde". The word assemblée means a "group of persons", "gathering". Is "fine gathering" a correct translation for "belle assemblée"? (I am not an English native speaker) — AldoSyrt (talk) 11:22, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

• See also the translation at The Diggiloo Thrush, a web source for lyrics and English translations of Eurovision songs. --Theurgist (talk) 13:18, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

I got a virus from Diggiloo Thrush last year and I had to reinstall Windows. Good luck! 80.123.210.172 (talk) 15:11, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

An anonymous report of an anonymous virus obtained at a seemingly legitimate website is less useful than you might think. It would be more helpful if you mention which antivirus product reported the virus, the name of the virus, which files were reported as infected, and how you made the connection to diggiloo.net. -- BenRG (talk) 20:56, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

I clicked on a link to diggiloo from a Wikipedia page (Wadde hadde dudde da?, I think) and from that point on I couldn't use my computer anymore, i.e. nothing worked anymore. I turned it off, and I was never able to use it with the old OS again (it didn't go past the first few screens). A professional looked into it, and he eventually reinstalled Windows - so, there was no Antivirus detecting anything (even though I had a few running at the time), no name for the virus, etc. It was a pretty nasty one, apparently. I looked up the site on Google from a University computer the next day, and Google warned that it could harm my computer. They might have fixed it in the meantime. No need for you to be so bitey. 80.123.210.172 (talk) 18:17, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Did your "professional" tell you the name of the virus, or the date and time when your computer was infected? The crash on clicking the link might just have been a coincidence. Dbfirs 10:21, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

He's a professional in the sense that he has worked in the field all his life and he's currently the IT specialist for an embassy, so leave the snide quotation marks aside. He somehow managed to run Kaspersky (in safe mode or something), but I don't remember it turning up anything. Or he just didn't tell me, IIRC I didn't even ask. I'm not a computer freak, so I don't really care that much. It was some coincidence, if it was one, especially because, as I've said, Google had a warning for the site the next day (I know they sometimes screw up with the warnings, but I don't think it was one of those days). 80.123.210.172 (talk) 11:58, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Apologies for the quotes. I should have just asked what the professional told you. I agree that a Google warning makes a coincidence less likely. Can you find any current reference to the warning? (I was doubtful because I couldn't.) Dbfirs 10:01, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

I can't, and I also can't find current references to someone who might have been infected. If I'm the only dumbass who got infected in those two days, I'm gonna be pissed :P 80.123.210.172 (talk) 10:11, 2 February 2011 (UTC)