Language desk
< May 13	<< Apr \| May \| Jun >>	May 15 >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

May 14

Matthew

How would "Matthew" be katakanaised? Interactive Fiction Expert/Talk to me 06:33, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Generally, マシュー. But Matthew the Evangelist is マタイ. --Kusunose 07:22, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

'ser' and 'set' in Venetian discourse

Hi - I'm reading the diaries of a Venetian nobleman - he refers to some gentlemen as 'ser', some as 'set', as in 'ser Bartolomeo Zoranzo', or 'set Zuan Comin' - the latter seeming to refer to men of lesser rank. Can anyone tell me more about the terms? Adambrowne666 (talk) 11:43, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You may also come across miser (mi ser), which was used in addressing the patricians of Venice. Ser is simply signore, or conceivably nobilis vir, and I think was used for patricians and citizens (for instance, we have The Book of Ser Marco Polo). I don't know about set, but I'll look into it. Xn4 01:38, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Could the difference be only a matter of sandhi, i.e. ser used before some sounds and set before others? —Tamfang (talk) 07:00, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

German phrase on train window

Austrian trains (the old variety, with windows that can be opened and closed) have this notice on the window: Bei Zugluft dieses Fenster zu schließen. I think this can be translated as "in case of a draught, close this window", but I'd be grateful if someone could confirm that for me. And even if that's right, I'm still having trouble unpicking the sentence. Does it mean "close the window if you experience a draught", or possibly "in order to avoid draughts, keep the window closed"? The first seems more likely, but then I'm left wondering why any railway company would bother to state the bleedin' obvious. Many thanks. --Richardrj ^talk ^email 12:24, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It means, "This window is to be closed if there is a draught." I suppose that the notice is there 1) to let riders know that they have the option of closing the window and 2) if people in a compartment differ over whether a draught justifies closing the window, the old lady who doesn't like it can point to the notice and say, "That means any draught." Marco polo (talk) 13:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. Does it really mean "to be closed", which sounds like an order? Would "may be closed" be better? --Richardrj ^talk ^email 13:22, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The wording is not standard German. It is telegraphic. My translation assumes that it is shorthand for "Bei Zugluft ist dieses Fenster zu schließen." I suppose that a different reading is possible, but my German is not strong enough to be sure. Marco polo (talk) 17:50, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, you are quite right. On the way home this evening I noticed that I had got the wording wrong and ist should indeed be there where you put it. I still can't believe that the intention is to say "to be closed" rather than "may be closed", though. Why would they be prescriptive like that? As you say, it gives riders the option of closing the window in the event of a draught, it doesn't say that it must be closed in the event of a draught. --Richardrj ^talk ^email 18:23, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My gut feeling is that there's an incorrect space in the middle of a word, and it should actually read Bei Zugluft dieses Fenster zuschließen – "In case of draft, close this window completely". —An gr 18:51, 14 May 2008 (UTC) Oops, I see you already corrected yourself. Why are they being so prescriptive and saying riders must close the window in case of draft? Well, because they're Austrians, and Austrians (at the risk of calling on a stereotype) are like the Germans, only more so. —An gr 18:54, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Again, I give the example of the old lady. The railway company doesn't want their staff to have to mediate disputes over closing the window, so they offer prescriptive wording to settle the matter. Also the company may be concerned about liability if the draught should carry a hard or sharp object into the compartment, injuring a passenger. In such a case, the company could offer the defense that they clearly indicated that the window should be closed in the event of a draught. Marco polo (talk) 18:55, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Again, at the risk of falling back on stereotypes, that's much more an American way of thinking than a German/Austrian one, in my opinion. —An gr 19:41, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Erm, what sort of air, if not "Zugluft", do you expect in a "Zug"? Clearly, this is a clever pun by the authorities to ascertain that only the "Zugluft" contained within the train upon departure is inhaled by the travellers. The breathing in of publicly owned air outside the train (termed as "Landluft", as it is owned by the state), is "gebührenpflichtig". You should also be aware that the possession of a stately approved proboscis (see "Luftwaffe") requires it to be licensed for private breathing purposes, not exceeding volumes and frequencies as laid out in the relevant legislation. Any such apparatus exceeding the allowed maximum of 6 inches (though I may be confusing this) is subject to a specific tax, the "Luftsteuer".

I take it for granted that you are aware that any exhalation performed utilising non-suitable orifices (of which some 8,205,533 have been enumerated within the boundaries) may cause a wrinkling of noses. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 20:16, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

On peril of taking this train related topic entirely off track. Cookatoo: In that case you could throw the "Umweltgesetzbuch" at them. (And close that window! "Es zieht!") :-)71.236.23.111 (talk) 20:26, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would tend to translate the construction etwas ist zu machen as "something can be done", not "something must be done", although both are possible translations. However, if obligation rather than possibility/permission were the intention in this sentence then the form Bei Zugluft dieses Fenster schließen would be an alternative (with the infinitive serving as an imperative as is common in German) and as the rail company chose the more ambiguous, less clearly prescriptive form, I would assume that the notice is informative rather than prescriptive. I would be inclined to ascribe this need to state the bleedin' obvious to the Austrian character too, except that I have seen similar statements (albeit in different situations) all over Europe - not least in Britain. Valiantis (talk) 23:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What is meant by the use of the word "sick" when used in sporting events?

I am not sure if this is the correct spelling. I have often heard this word used in motor sports events. ie. "He really got some sick air". It appears to be describing a jump, like in a motorcross event, where the rider went higher or further than usual. I have heard it used in other contexts as well and always to describe something that is more than usual.

Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dooley the clown (talk • contribs) 12:37, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's just a slang word for something really good or spectacular, much like "wicked". --WikiSlasher (talk) 12:52, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See this entry at Urban Dictionary. Dismas|^(talk) 13:00, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As in wikkid and si-ick? Julia Rossi (talk) 01:59, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Drains Up Review

Our CEO has asked us to prepare for a "drains up" review of a project. None of us want to sound stupid and ask him what he means. Does anyone know? anon

Sounds like the kind of management jargon that even Dilbert's Pointy-Haired Boss would dismiss as too pretentious. I imagine it just means a thorough review. --Richardrj ^talk ^email 14:01, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I think if we prepare for a thorough review we should be OK whatever he has in mind. anon

I guess it just means "totally thorough", as in "even more thorough than from the basement up". What a vile piece of management-babble. Has it incentivised you to focus all your core competencies on the challenge at hand? Are you now ready to leverage your resources to pursue a project paradigm shift? -- Ka renjc 14:20, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I just found this [1] which may shed further light. -- Ka renjc 15:53, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pardon my French English

I sometimes test machine translation web sites by feeding them random sentenses taken from junk mail.

Je possede la connaissance de la langue francaise. (from junk mail)
- I have knowledge of the English language. (Google Translate)
- I have the knowledge of the French language. (Yahoo! BabelFish, based on SYSTRAN)
- I possede the knowledge of the francaise language. (Traducteur)
- Has codeaths of the langue francaise possede her. (1st try, Orange Traduction)
- I possede the knowledge of the francaise language. (2nd try, Orange Traduction)

If I were the author, I would rather say: "Je parle française" instead of using all these clumsy words. Anyway, after a little correction, Google seems to understand French.

Je possédée la connaissance de la langue française. (proper spelling)
- I possessed knowledge of French. (Google Translate)
- I had the knowledge of the French language. (Yahoo! BabelFish)
- I had the knowledge of the French language. (Traducteur)
- I had the knowledge of the French language. (Orange Traduction)

How could Google be so miserable! I mean, how could Google translate the word "francaise" into "English"? By the way, do you guys need a mail-ordered wife who speaks French? Ha! I love junk mail! -- Toytoy (talk) 18:49, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Google Translate doesn't act like a standard dictionary-and-grammar based translation engine - it uses a statistical technique based on documents in their database that have versions in multiple languages. Errors like the one you found are one of the disadvantages of this approach (it's not hard to imagine the system thinking that "English version" is supposed to be a translation of "version francais", for example). Ironfrost (talk) 08:02, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Weird stuff, the Google Translate bit. But to their defense, they may have tried to imply that if you needed to use Google Translate to translate a phrase as 'basic' as that from French to English, then indeed you don't have knowledge of French, but only of English! :P I think those guys at Google are trying to be too smart, I guess... Kreachure (talk) 19:40, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe they're just being to literal. You asked them to translate French into English. So, they did. Literally. Matt Deres (talk) 20:04, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The most "dangerous" feature of those translating agents is that they leave words that they can't find in the original without indicating such. The user thinks "Gee that's odd it's the same in that language," and goes ahead and uses it. There's a reason why people return to using human translators after trying the machine version. You should have seen how much fun one of my clients had describing they loaded their trucks with a paper transport unit for laser printers (forklift :-). 71.236.23.111 (talk) 20:14, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Je possédée is impossible. Je possède (present); je possédais (imperfect); j'ai possédé (passé composé). —Tamfang (talk) 20:46, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Translation from Hungarian

How would one translate: "Önarckép mint a szemlélődés allegóriája"? It's the title of a painting, the original of which was probably in French. - Mu (talk) 22:13, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It means something like Self-portrait in allegorical contemplation (or introspection).

You can see the painting here.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 00:34, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And the artist is apparently Geneviève Brossard de Beaulieu. Corvus cornix_talk 01:58, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Would this pass as a title as well: Allegory of Contemplation (self portrait)? Julia Rossi (talk) 01:58, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mint meaning as or like, the Hungarian translates literally to Self-portrait as allegorical contemplation; but one has to use a little licence, as usual, to wrest it into something idiomatic. I don't know enough to do any better, or to judge concerning Allegory of Contemplation (self portrait). Allegóriája is adjectival; allegory would be allegória.

I see that this Italian is given here: Autoritratto in figura allegorica di contemplazione. Why, I'm not sure. Isn't the Italian a little problematic also, mia cara Giulia? Literally Self-portrait in allegorical figure [or perhaps attitude] of contemplation. We get the general idea, but I can't say what would capture it most aptly in English. Certainly there is the same sort of slippage between the Italian and the Hungarian, anyway.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 02:58, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It was more putting it into museum English with the subject + genre – rather than the grammatical translation, a trans-titling attempt for (and apols to) Genevieve B d B, (and who said English takes more words to say something than other languages?) har, Julia Rossi (talk) 03:47, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks for your suggestions. With all these versions in Hungarian, Italian, and English, I should now be able to cobble something together in French :-) - Mu (talk) 09:11, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The lady could also use airy titles, such as "La muse de la Poésie livrée aux regrets que lui laisse la mort de Voltaire" SaundersW (talk) 10:15, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

By then she might have realised that long titles stood out in catalogues and impressed the patron. Airy is nice, Julia Rossi (talk) 00:28, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]