Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 September 27

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

September 27

Are there translation sites where Japanese words are in English letter words instead of symbols?

I wanted to translate English sentences to Japanese, but they come up in symbols (kanji). So, are there sites where translating English to Japanese comes up with English letter Japanese words (like: Konnichiwa instead of こんにちは)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.238.155.66 (talk) 00:18, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

search around for "romaji dictionary" on search engines and you will find a ton. I can't recommend any though. -- Diletante 00:20, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

There're a number of useful sites which help convert romaji (what you called "English letters") into kanji and kana (what you called "symbols"), but it seems that there're no good sites which process the other way round.--K.C. Tang 01:28, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

sentence making

how can I make a sentence using word 'classifiacation'? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.196.16.48 (talk) 01:32, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

You just did. (Joseph A. Spadaro 01:48, 27 September 2007 (UTC))

Easily, but not without the red pencil hovering to strike. Xn4 02:29, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

You probably mean classification. If you do aGoogle search for "classification", you'll find plenty of sentences using the word.  --Lambiam 04:06, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

They could also mean "word classification"... A.Z. 04:07, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

And there's a template for Google searches: classification. A.Z. 06:06, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Is "word 'classification'" a technique that could be used to construct sentences - it's a long shot but i don't wan't to miss any possibilities83.100.254.236 10:59, 27 September 2007 (UTC) eg these words are pronouns, these other words are verbs, etc eg pronoun, verb, noun marker, noun = "She jumps the house"?83.100.254.236 11:02, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Though I don't quite understand your latest question, you could use the verb form of "classification," which is "classify," to make something like: "Lions and cougars are classified in the same scientific family, Felidae." This would be equivalent to saying, "Lions and cougars are in the same classification of scientific families, Felidae." --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 01:32, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

What is the Proper Term for This?

I am not sure if this is a question of psychology / science or of language. I have often noticed a particular phenomenon. When you ask a question, sometimes the respondant will not answer your question ... but will instead talk about a topic that he knows more fluently, as an "answer" to your question. That is, he does not answer your question, but he answers some other (somewhat similar) question about which he is more comfortable giving an answer. Here is just a hypothetical example, to illustrate. I ask "How many plays did the great writer Shakespeare write?" ... and I am expecting an answer like, say, 48 (or whatever). The person answering says something like: "Even though Shakespeare was considered a great writer, let's not forget about the great contributions to literature that were made by James Joyce." And then they go and on and on and talk at length about James Joyce (i.e., using the question as a platform to impress me with all their knowledge about Joyce -- which, although somehat similar, has no bearing to my question). Maybe a more commonplace example - I ask "How many miles is the drive from here to New York?" - expecting a numerical answer like "100 miles". And the person says, "Well, I can't tell you how many miles but do make sure that once you get there, you visit the XYZ tourist attraction because you will love it. And make sure you go in the spring and avoid the summer tourist season and if you get a chance, eat at Charlie's Steak House and ... (and on and on and on)." Something like that. Is there a "name" for this type of phenomenon? Not common parlance like, "avoiding the question" or "skirting the issue" or "dodging the question" or "rhetoric" ... but more of a psychological term to describe it, like "defensive evasion" or whatever? A technical / scientific term that a psychiatrist would employ -- not a layman's description. Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro 01:49, 27 September 2007 (UTC))

One very interesting aspect of psychology is the Rorschach test. I'd strongly recommend reading up on it if you're interested in psychology. Terrific stuff. -Elmer Clark 02:03, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

You ask whether there is a psychological term to describe this phenomenon, but let's not forget that (as Hector Hugh Munro puts it) "Addresses are given to us to conceal our whereabouts". You may well wonder what he meant by that, but genius has no need to explain itself. In short, for the answer to your question, you could do worse than refer to The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, a major work of philosophical fiction in which lateral thinking reaches its... (continued on page 94). Xn4 02:19, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

To avoid this phenomenon myself, I'll use a more direct answer: none that I know of, although the phrase "avoidance behaviour" springs to mind. However, if I may also be allowed to indulge a little, the most obvious form of this behaviour is the politician. Using this as part of your research might help to clarify it.Steewi 05:32, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Good show Elmer and Xn4. 38.112.225.84 13:52, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't have a specific answer for you, but would like to add that, while such behavior is annoying in a formal debate, it's not in common conversation. In the "distance to NY" example you provided, they don't have the info you want, but do have other info which may well be useful, so it seems entirely appropriate, to me, for them to supply you with that info at that time. If their answer was simply "I don't know", and they walked away, that would seem positively rude. Also, if you'd asked "I have the toilet bowl full of ammonia, but that doesn't seem to be getting the stains out, where can I find a bottle of chlorine bleach to add to it ?", they would be positively negligent to talk about where the bleach is without also mentioning that this combo can produce poisonous chlorine gas. StuRat 13:57, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I may be mis-applying these terms but Irrelevant conclusion, and Proof by verbosity seem to be related to the question at hand. -- Diletante 15:29, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I would like to propose the word, "mobfuscation".  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scandalium (talk • contribs) 19:30, 30 September 2007 (UTC) 

language arts

Hello, i have questions regarding idioms: literal and figurative meanings and how to go about getting an answer to what the different meanings are regarding these phrases:

 When you're thirteen in  our neighborhood you know the score.

 He's as hard as a rock and about as human.

 He thinks I'm a pain in the neck.

 "... the chips are always down when it's our turn..."

I have tried to look what the literal meaings would be and then what the figurative meaings of the above phrases are to no luck. Is there anyway you would or could help me with these problems. thank you so very much.

freshtulip —Preceding unsigned comment added by Freshtulip (talk • contribs) 03:48, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

"Know the score" needs some context to make more sense, but it probably means you know the unspoken rules of behaviour in that particular neighbourhood...like, maybe you know who the friendly adults are, and who the bad kids are, and the good and bad places to hang out. "Hard as a rock" probably means harsh and authoritarian, someone who makes a decision and won't be swayed by any arguments. The second part of course means "as human as a rock", so it's just an insult. "Pain in the neck" is a nuisance or an annoying person. "The chips are always down" means nothing ever turns out in your favour, which I assume comes from poker terminology. Adam Bishop 03:56, 27 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.210.170.48 (talk)

When you're thirteen in our neighborhood you know the score. Imprecise, usually followed by an explanation, but "to know the score" is to have no illusions. I don't know what this is from. I'd always thought baseball, the score of the game.

He's as hard as a rock and about as human. "Hard as a rock" is proverbial, the workaday simile for hardness. We have white as a sheet, dead as a doornail, happy as a clam, etc. The whole sentence is not an idiomatic expression. The writer made a play on words: he's as human as a rock.

He thinks I'm a pain in the neck. The speaker annoys him. The literal meaning is obvious.

"... the chips are always down when it's our turn..." "The chips are down" is the idiomatic expression. From the card game poker, I'm sure. It means that a crucial moment has arrived. In poker, the chips are down after the bets have been placed, and it's time to show your cards and decide the winner. --Milkbreath 04:11, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Freshtulip: for future reference, "when the chips are down", "know the score" and "pain in the neck", and many other idioms are defined in the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary which is searchable online. jnestorius^(talk) 10:00, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Dutch to English translation for improvement of Wikipedia article

It would be nice to see this band's Dutch band page to be translated and used to improve its corresponding English page

Anyone able to translate? A direct (or loose) translation would work well for the Reputatie (reputation) section. The rest is pretty well covered on the English page.

Thank you. Guroadrunner 09:36, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

A quick translation, you'll have to adapt it yourself.

--START--

Unseen Terror was a grindcore band from Birmingham, England.

History The group was founded in 1987 by drummer Shane Embury (Napalm Death) and singer/quitarist Mitch Dickinson (Heresay). They were later joined by Pete Giles (Warhammer, Harmony as One, Scalplock) on bass.

After contributing two tracks to the collection 'Diminished Responsibility', the group landed a record contract at Earache Records. The album 'Human Error' was recorded in september 1987.

After their debut-album, Napalm Death drummer Mick Harris joined the band as singer. By then, Giles had left the group. The band organised a recording session for radio legend John Peel, and a one-off performance in Nottingham with bassist Wayne Aston.

The group came to an end after this. Embury became a fulltime bassist for Napalm Death and Dickinson became guitarist for the band Heresy

Reputation

The group was originally founded with the intent of producing hardcore punk and grindcore with a decent musical foundation. Due to the lyrics of several songs on the album 'Human Error', that used comic character Garfield as a subject, the group developed a pretpunk image. An undeserved label, according to many fans.

Note: the word pretpunk is Dutch. It denotes a musical genre, which can be translated approximately as funpunk. I don't know the English terminology, but without references, I doubt this sentence should remain in the article anyway.

Discography

Demos and albums: Rehearsal Demo 1987 Human Error LP 1987 The Peel Sessions recorded 22 March 1988, broadcast 11 April 1988, published as vinyl EP in 1989

Collections that feature songs by Unseen Terror: Diminished Responsibility : the tracks “Beyond Eternity” en “Expulsion Of Wrath” Grindcrusher: the track “Divisions” Hardcore Holocaust 87-88 : the tracks “Voice Your Opinion” Hardcore Holocaust II : the tracks “Incompatible” en “Burned Beyond Recognition”

--END--

Feel free to use this as you see fit. risk 13:54, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

The recommended place to ask for this is at Wikipedia:Translation. --ColinFine 22:24, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Cheers Guroadrunner 06:59, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

what is the phrase "hairs on a bobbin"

who uses it and where does it originate. thank you. 77.234.78.244 10:12, 27 September 2007 (UTC).

I've heard it used by my relatives who were weavers in Lancashire's cotton mills.A bobbin is a smooth piece of wood so it's a valid comparison....hotclaws 10:36, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

What is a sentence they might use it in? What do they mean by it? 77.234.76.112 11:45, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

"As much use as hairs on a bobbin" that is something that is no use at all,or stops something being used correctly.--hotclaws 09:23, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

What does it mean? And don't say "a bobbin with hairs on it." --Milkbreath 10:45, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Is it like the Chinese idea of "the sound of one hand clapping"? Xn4 16:00, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Zen Britishism? --Milkbreath 16:23, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

So an equivalent simile would be as "as much use as a chocolate teapot" ? Gandalf61 10:42, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

yum!

Miquelon; Basque, Spanish, both or neither?

I have been in a slow revert war at Saint Pierre and Miquelon over the origin of the name "Miquelon". I found a couple of citations for Miquelon being the Basque equivalent of Michael. Apparently the earliest Basque visitors to the Islands included several people named Miquelon, as noted in some related WP articles. Someone who claims that Miquelon is Spanish, not Basque has changed this a couple of times (I think that is his reasoning, but his English is bad enough that I do not know); he claims that the proper Basque name is Miquel, not Miquelon. I managed to get him to write his reasoning at [1] and I still do not get it. Can anyone shed some light on this? Is this some sort of Spanish Nationalist/neofascist anti-Basque thing? What is going on here?--Filll 15:10, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I see you know about Hoyarçabal, as you're the main author of the article Les voyages aventureux du Capitaine Martin de Hoyarsal, habitant du çubiburu. I'll try to think what I would do. Xn4 16:34, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually the correct Basque name is "Mikel", as is commonly seen in the news (when talking about Basque politicians, ETA members...) in Spain. On the other hand, I don't think calling someone who disagrees with you in such a trivial thing "Spanish Nationalist/neofascist anti-Basque" to be actually intelligent. --Taraborn 16:43, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Maybe what I said was unintelligent. I do not understand what seems to be such a frenzy to change this. Maybe what is in the cited references is wrong. I do not know. I am just puzzled over what is going on and I have decided to get more information here.--Filll 16:58, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I have edited the disputed passage to read as below, restored the deleted references and added another, and also put a note on the Saint Pierre and Miquelon Talk page. I hope this will help. Xn4 17:37, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

“ The name of Miquelon was first noted as 'Micquelle' in Martin de Hoyarçabal's navigational pilot for Newfoundland. According to Marc Cormier, the name 'Miquelon' is a Basque form of Michael, though the usual modern Basque form is 'Mikel'. Miquelon is also close to the Spanish Miguelón, a form of Miguel (Michael). ”

Thanks. I appreciate it.---Filll 17:40, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

What does this mean?

What does the frase Sua Sponte mean? I believe its latin. MIKE —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.72.84.67 (talk) 16:41, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

It means "by his own will". We have an article, sua sponte. Adam Bishop 17:21, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

It usually refers to a legal situation, whereby the judge takes some form of action on his own and not as a response to one party's (or the other's) request. Usually, one party or the other will make a "motion" -- that motion is a request that the judge do something (take some action) -- usually deny the motion or grant the motion. If the judge takes action without having been asked by either party, you would say that the judge did so on his own, without any motion or prompting, or "sua sponte." Example: Judge Smith ordered, sua sponte, that the criminal's psychiatric records be sealed to the public. (Joseph A. Spadaro 17:46, 27 September 2007 (UTC))

initiative fits better than will, i'd say. —Tamfang 06:48, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

List of Latin phrases --Milkbreath 23:57, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

The Scots leid

Given that in today's society, a second language seems to be a big plus for employers, is there any real reason (besides disingenuousness) for a native English speaker not to pad a CV with a claim of "being able to understand Lowland Scots", given that the two aren't widely known to be pretty much mutually intelligible? (Purely hypothetical, I'm happily employed at the moment :) ) GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 20:49, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

There's a good case for Scots being a language rather than a dialect of English. We also have to say that speakers of Scots and Standard English can understand each other pretty well, though sometimes with a little effort on both sides and with a word needing to be explained here and there. I'd say that even if Scots is a language then there's a parallel with (say) Danish and Norwegian: a Dane wouldn't put on his CV that he speaks Norwegian, as Danes and Norwegians all know they can understand each other, with a little effort. You say "the two aren't widely known to be pretty much mutually intelligible", but it's widely enough known for someone on an interview panel to be likely to know and say to the others "this one is pulling our leg". Xn4 21:48, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I can't imagine any employer that wasn't in Scotland/didn't deal regularly with Scottish clients would care at all, and those who were/did would know enough to realize what (little) that statement meant. -Elmer Clark 23:51, 27 September 2007 (UTC)