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September 25

Sword fight trope in movies

Does anyone know where this originated? The hero and villain face each other with swords from a few meters apart. Then they both run towards each other and strike at the same time with their swords. They run past each other and there is a moment of silence where it is unclear what happened. Then the bad guy starts spurting blood and falls over dead. This is a recent example from a movie I saw tonight, but there have been many more. I think it's quite common in anime. 146.200.126.178 (talk) 01:03, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It certainly dates back to the silent film era, but I would expect it to originate prior to that in stage combat. Dekimasuよ! 01:37, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

you may be correct, but I did think it was a trope from Japanese cinema, perhaps as old as you said. I've definitely seen it in Japanese movies and anime over the years, but my memory fails me now. In Kill Bill, Beatrix kills O-Ren in this manner (she slices off the top of her head after a duel) - and I know Tarantino made his film as a homage to Japanese samurai movies. 146.200.126.178 (talk) 02:11, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In Japan as well I would expect it to go back to stage combat and through silent movies, although in early Japanese cinema the hero was more likely to fight against a large group of enemies at once. Off the top of my head there is a prominent example in one of Seiji Miyaguchi's scenes in Kurosawa's Seven Samurai (1954, short cut here). Dekimasuよ! 02:31, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Off topic perhaps, but the Seagal scene is choreographed really badly, isn't it? At 1:35 we see Seagal from the perspective of the person he is fighting, swinging directly across from the left side of the screen. Seagal's sword jumps from a "down" position to an "up" position at 1:37 (with no blood on the sword). At 1:38 we appear to see Seagal swing the sword directly downward, but by this point the person Seagal's fighting is bleeding from the wrong side, apparently without his shirt being cut. At 1:45 Seagal's sword suddenly has blood dripping from it in massive amounts. Based on the character movements, the person Seagal was fighting against never even swung his sword, simply running straight past—although his arm also jumps from a "down" position to an "up" position at 1:38. At 2:17, the opponent falls dead with his face to the right. At 2:19, his face is to the left. Dekimasuよ! 02:47, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The running towards each other is perhaps most famously (influentially) done in Akira Kurosawa's Seven Samurai, in one of the early "recruitment" scenes. It's a samurai movie trope (it may predate it or be used in other genres, I don't know, but everyone knows Kurosawa), and it looks like in the clip they're recreating a number of the shot setups of Kurosawa.

There are several other stage combat tropes being done there, which are quite out of place (even for stage combat purposes). There usually has to be a reason for doing things, in a martial art, a sport, or in stage combat for theater. So randomly switching between different (better) films' of different genres' fight scene styles in the middle of a few minutes, if not a parody (and with Steven Seagal, who can know?) is rather jarring to anyone. That's why you saw it and thought to yourself, "something's very wrong". SamuelRiv (talk) 02:51, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

On the "silence" bit -- one thing I've noticed about stage combat (I've only done sport and martial arts, but this is from friends and teachers who did theater and some online info) is that a lot of form follows function as an excuse to talk. So in sword fights, the actors will find moments to get up real close and start shouting in each others' faces (The Force Awakens's final fight actually did this pretty decently), or else take a moment to stand apart and taunt each other (Empire Strikes Back did this extremely well). It's when a sword fight happens in complete silence, where the actors don't talk even when the trope would suggest they should, that the audience is signalled that this is beyond intense. Imo a perfect execution of this was in Rob Roy (1995 film), with the final scene being set up for the entire film. (Without that real emotional narrative buildup however, or some great investment where you think anything can happen (like sports), a silent fight scene in a film just gets boring.) (Addendum: this applies to stage and film combat. In sports and modern martial arts, none of that happens (except for weird artifacts of rules of sport fencing). As for a "real life swordfight", which people are asked about sometimes, nobody has been in one for generations, and a lot of the reconstruction is incomplete.) SamuelRiv (talk) 03:08, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Real life sword fight. A version of this video (warning, violence - no one died, both idiots got arrested) went viral a few years ago and people were saying that this is probably the first real sword fight caught on video. Iloveparrots (talk) 09:05, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pokemon did it too. Not sure why that jumped into my head, but that's deffo a reference to something else. Iloveparrots (talk) 08:35, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See also Diagonal Cut from tvtrpes.org. Alansplodge (talk) 14:58, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Convention vs. unconventional

If what is generally described as "good” art tends to be unconventional, which may also be described as original or new, which I personally believe is true, how does it avoid becoming conventional over time? Does art need to be in constant flux, changing its form in immeasurable ways, to stay one step ahead of convention? Is that which is conventional the enemy of art, or can it coexist and thrive alongside it? Viriditas (talk) 10:28, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You will have to read a lot to get a satisfying answer. I would start with a search such as this: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=originality+art HansVonStuttgart (talk) 10:47, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The notion that art should be original and therefore at least somewhat unconventional is relatively recent. Before the arrival of Modernism one century ago, Western art was governed by an aesthetic ideal of "beauty" that every art theorist defined in their own way. Innovations were valued only insofar as they brought the art closer to the unattainable ideal.

Just as fads in fashion are driven by a small group of fashion designers and critics, the notion of what is "good" (read, between the lines, "high-priced") art is also subject to fads driven by a small incrowd in the art world. People in this circle are keen to "discover" an unknown artist with a fresh, new, original, inspiring approach, preferably an artist in a small group of like-minded artists who are somewhat of a bunch of rebels, and to promote them – ignoring scores of other suffering artists with equally fresh, new, original and inspiring approaches. If this succeeds and the new star in the firmament shines bright and fetches high prices for their work, others jump on the bandwagon, and what once was original becomes unsellable imitation. It is time for the discovery of the next unknown artist with a fresh, new, original, inspiring approach. --Lambiam 14:03, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mugato piano key necktie gif. Viriditas (talk) 20:14, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Vikings

"The explanation could explain only the masculine grammatical gender (víkingr) and not the feminine (víking); the masculine is more easily derived from the feminine than the other way around." I'm confused about this sentence. Can someone please explain? I can see both words víkingr and víking being derived from the word "víkin". Why the derivation only works on the masculine form? Thanks! 2600:6C44:117F:95BE:1850:9245:B082:62CE (talk) 10:32, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also, why the masculine form can be derived from the feminine form but not the other way around? I can easily imagine that víkingr and víking can both be derived from each other. I mean it makes sense in my head. What am I missing here? 2600:6C44:117F:95BE:1850:9245:B082:62CE (talk) 10:57, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

IP editor, have you read the reference for the sentence? It is fairly long and technical.

Eldar Heide (2005). "Víking – 'rower shifting'? An etymological contribution" (PDF). Arkiv för Nordisk Filologi. 120: 41–54. Archived from the original (PDF) on 14 July 2014. Retrieved 20 April 2015.

TSventon (talk) 14:14, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I did spend half an hour reading it. It's too difficult for a layman person like me to understand what they're trying to say though. That's why I need an explaination for dummy. 2600:6C44:117F:95BE:EDA0:1EFB:E4CB:1F6A (talk) 04:23, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

IP editor, I think that Heide and his sources are arguing that there are examples of masculine words like víkingr being derived from feminine words like viking (according to researchers in Old Norse), but not the other way round. Three key quotes are on page 43 Askeberg says: "I do not know any example of a masculine ing-derivation having given origin to a feminine nomen actionis that expresses the person’s action, and such a formation seems unreasonable. A hildingr m. 'king' can not be supposed to have given origin to a *hilding f. 'the quality of being a king' etc" on page 44 Askeberg points out that deverbative ing-derivations are considered younger than the word víkingr, and that it is unlikely that feminine verbal abstracts in so early times could be formed from strong verbs, like víka. and 45 On the other hand, a masculine víkingr 'sea warrior' could well be derived from a feminine víking denoting an activity. Old Norse parallels to such a development would be vellingr m. 'pottage' from *velling f. 'boiling'; geldingr m. 'a castrated ox or ram' from gelding f. 'castration'; [etc.]. TSventon (talk) 15:42, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

TSventon I'm still confused. Why the word "víkingr" can be derived from the word "víkin" but the word "víking" can't? What they're saying is too technical for me to understand. I need an explanation for dummy. 2600:6C44:117F:95BE:E1D5:4325:36B7:C2A5 (talk) 04:48, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"I do not know any example of a masculine ing-derivation having given origin to a feminine nomen actionis that expresses the person’s action" -> if I understand this correctly, this is saying that there is no example of a masculine noun having origin from a feminine verbal noun. This contradicts your claim above. I'm really confused now. 2600:6C44:117F:95BE:E1D5:4325:36B7:C2A5 (talk) 04:54, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

IP editor, I see you started a discussion at Talk:Vikings#Semi-protected edit request on 26 September 2024 so I have copied my response there. TSventon (talk) 17:37, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Secret ballot used in determining guilt

I'm currently reading Frankenstein for the first time (some of you might twig why).

The section (Vol. I, Chapter VII) where Justine is being tried for murder includes a reference to ballots: The ballots had been thrown; they were all black, and Justine was condemned. A footnote describes these ballots as "small balls used for secret voting". I'd love to hear more about this system. As an Aussie, I'm proud our name is sometimes attached to the secret ballot used for electing members of legislatures, and that result figures prominently in the searches I've done. Include "black" or "white" in the search terms, and I get lots of hits dealing with race as a factor in determining voter eligibility. Include "jury", and I get lots of hits for systems of choosing jurors. But nothing comes up for its use by juries themselves in criminal trials.

Our secret ballot article makes no reference to this. If Shelley's reference is historically accurate, it would considerably predate its use for electing politicians, and that's something we should definitely include in our article(s). The novel is set mainly in Switzerland, so perhaps this system did not obtain anywhere else. But then, how did an 18-year-old English girl get to know about it? And why would it be necessary anyway, since juries do their deliberations in secret. Or maybe that was different in some places at some times. Or maybe it was a panel of judges, rather than a jury in the 12 Angry Men sense.

Grateful for any information. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:08, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Our article entitled Blackballing should help. Blueboar (talk) 20:05, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And ballot has a picture of "Ancient Greek bronze secret ballots", not sure if that predates electing politicians. Card Zero (talk) 20:09, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ Blueboar: Blackballing makes no mention of its application to determining the guilt or innocence of a person charged with a crime, which is my sole interest here. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:55, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) A case from 1864, the Cantonal Parliament of Zurich voted on a motion for mercy in the case of a murderer. The members of the Cantonal Parliament had to deposit either a white (for mercy) or a black ball (against the motion) in an urn. DuncanHill (talk) 20:12, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Diccionario panhispánico del español jurídico has procedimiento administrativo de votación mediante bolas blancas y negras. It mentions honor and church corporations. Actually, I remember seeing in a church museum some such device used for voting.

--Error (talk) 23:30, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"[H]ow did an 18-year-old English girl get to know about it?" She (with Percy Shelley) spent the Summer of 1816 staying with Lord Byron in Geneva, where she got the idea for the work and began writing it. Presumably she, well educated by her father William Godwin, was intellectually curious and was able to learn something about the legal system of the country she was living in. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.171.3 (talk) 02:14, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is a really interesting question! As far as I can work out, black and white balls were a known form of secret voting in general in the eighteenth century, and criminal trials with juries that vote secretly started to catch on in France with the Revolution. So those things combined into some jury trials using balls for their secret ballots. The best sources I can find on the topic are "The Advent of the Secret Ballot in Britain and France, 1789–1914: From Public Assembly to Private Compartment" and "Publicity and Secrecy in Jury Proceedings" (PDF download). I haven't read either very closely but they seem likely to tell you much more. If there's good stuff in there, do expand the relevant wiki articles with it! ~ L 🌸 (talk) 03:29, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A couple of thoughts - in the story it is a panel of judges, and perhaps the balls were metaphorical. DuncanHill (talk) 12:03, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps so. But the metaphor must have had its genesis in an actual practice. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 17:43, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]