Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2024 February 2
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February 2
[edit]State funerals of British Monarchs
[edit]In the state funerals of British monarchs, the regalia placed on, and later removed from, the coffin are the Sceptre with cross, Sovereign's Orb and the Imperial State Crown. The first two make sense as they are used in the rite of crowning during the coronation ceremony. The Imperial State Crown seems a more unusual choice, given that it has no role in the ceremony other than the outward procession and is not the main crown of the Crown Jewels. St Edward's Crown is because that is the one used at the moment of coronation. So why is the Imperial State Crown used for royal funerals rather than the more senior St. Edward's Crown. --Andrew 09:18, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
- The monarch wears the Imperial State Crown at the State Opening of Parliament.
Sleigh (talk) 10:00, 2 February 2024 (UTC)- True but the St Edward's Crown is the centrepiece of the Crown Jewels and the most important of them. --Andrew 11:54, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
- A possible reason for the absence of St Edward's Crown may be that it symbolizes the royal authority, which passes on immediately to the successor when the reigning monarch dies. --Lambiam 10:19, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
- Potentially I suppose as the crown never dies, it just transfers so perhaps it is more appropriate for the Imperial State Crown to be used. --Andrew 11:55, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
- Originally, St Edward's Crown was considered to be a holy relic of Saint Edward the Confessor which was kept within the saint's shrine in Westminster Abbey and never left the church precincts. Since the crown's reconstruction in the 17th-century, it has been kept at the Tower of London, but the tradition continues that it is only used in the coronation ceremony. Since the reign of King Henry V in the 15th-century, the Imperial State Crown and its predecessors have been the only crown that was used on any other occasion. Note that the term "Imperial" here refers to an imperial crown, one with arches as used by the Holy Roman Emperors, and predates the concept of the British Empire by several centuries. Alansplodge (talk) 17:45, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
- See also Iron Crown, used for the coronation of Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor in 1431. Cf. the Holy Crown of Hungary, the physical posession of which in ancient times entitled its owner to be king, eg Matthias Corvinus. According to Péter Révay, "When Hungary needed a new monarch it did not seek a crown to inaugurate a king, but a king worthy of the Crown[...]The crown itself is a legal person identical to the state of Hungary. It is superior to the ruling monarch, who rules 'in the name of the crown'". MinorProphet (talk) 18:25, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
- Presumably an inspiration for the plotline of Minions (film). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.199.208.215 (talk) 20:22, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
- Never watched it, despite a gazillion shots/memes. I'll get back to you. In the meantime, I feel there's not enough poetry on the refdesks. Thus, via The Contention of Ajax and Ulysses:
- Presumably an inspiration for the plotline of Minions (film). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.199.208.215 (talk) 20:22, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
- See also Iron Crown, used for the coronation of Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor in 1431. Cf. the Holy Crown of Hungary, the physical posession of which in ancient times entitled its owner to be king, eg Matthias Corvinus. According to Péter Révay, "When Hungary needed a new monarch it did not seek a crown to inaugurate a king, but a king worthy of the Crown[...]The crown itself is a legal person identical to the state of Hungary. It is superior to the ruling monarch, who rules 'in the name of the crown'". MinorProphet (talk) 18:25, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
- Originally, St Edward's Crown was considered to be a holy relic of Saint Edward the Confessor which was kept within the saint's shrine in Westminster Abbey and never left the church precincts. Since the crown's reconstruction in the 17th-century, it has been kept at the Tower of London, but the tradition continues that it is only used in the coronation ceremony. Since the reign of King Henry V in the 15th-century, the Imperial State Crown and its predecessors have been the only crown that was used on any other occasion. Note that the term "Imperial" here refers to an imperial crown, one with arches as used by the Holy Roman Emperors, and predates the concept of the British Empire by several centuries. Alansplodge (talk) 17:45, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
The Glories of Our Blood and State
By James Shirley, c.1654
The glories of our blood and state
Are shadows, not substantial things;
There is no armour against Fate;
Death lays his icy hand on kings:
Sceptre and Crown
Must tumble down,
And in the dust be equal made
With the poor crooked scythe and spade.
Some men with swords may reap the field,
And plant fresh laurels where they kill:
But their strong nerves at last must yield;
They tame but one another still:
Early or late
They stoop to fate,
And must give up their murmuring breath
When they, pale captives, creep to death.
The garlands wither on your brow;
Then boast no more your mighty deeds!
Upon Death's purple altar now
See where the victor-victim bleeds.
Your heads must come
To the cold tomb:
Only the actions of the just
Smell sweet and blossom in their dust.
MinorProphet (talk) 02:35, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
- Not the best recording I've heard, but there is an example of Coleman's (1622 – 1669) setting: Video on YouTube Martin of Sheffield (talk) 10:39, 3 February 2024 (UTC)