Humanities desk
< January 30	<< Dec \| January \| Feb >>	Current desk >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Humanities Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is a transcluded archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

January 31

Difficult advanced English

The English that is taught in school books, and used in movies, TV series are easy English, but some people speak with very difficult English using uncommon words and phrases, which are not easy to understand.

Which online newsppaers, magazines have articles, editorials or opinion pieces written in difficult English? 山のユキヒョウ (talk) 14:39, 31 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, see readability for a discussion, including some of the systems used to test the difficulty level of a text. You can enter articles in an online readability checker tool (for example: https://www.online-utility.org/english/readability_test_and_improve.jsp) to compare the levels of writing on different websites. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 15:54, 31 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't say that movies and TV series have easy English. News reports and documentaries are intended to be (hopefully) easy to understand, but in artistic endeavors, other factors can make it harder. The readability article centers about written text, but spoken media such as songs and films can feature English dialects, English slang, fast talking, mumbling that make it harder for non-natives. For example Trainspotting (film): Prior to its release in the United States, Miramax, the film's US distributor, requested that some of the dialogue be dubbed so the film would be easier to understand for American viewers unfamiliar with Scottish slang. Rap music also often uses Black Vernacular English and slang that non-Americans may be unfamiliar with. Euphuism was a prose style that deliberately tried to be hard to parse. --Error (talk) 18:27, 31 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

One source of more difficult English is writing about the law. For example, the US, UK, and Canada each have a Supreme Court and when they rule on a case they publish a statement of the reasons behind their decisions (and also sometimes a "dissent", where some of the judges explain why they did not agree with the decision). Here are some recent examples (all in PDF) from the US, from Canada, and from the UK. --142.112.220.65 (talk) 21:04, 31 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Harder They Come was allegedly released in movie theaters in the U.S. with subtitles... AnonMoos (talk) 21:41, 31 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In the UK too. It was the first time I had seen English subtitled for English speakers, but now it is quite common, for example in TV news interviews or documentaries. Itsmejudith (talk) 12:43, 2 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have seen one English "working class" movie with subtitles in America; I think it was Mike Leigh's High Hopes (1988). (Now my hearing is just bad enough that I usually activate subtitles wherever available.) —Tamfang (talk) 16:21, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You are probably better off reading literature rather than journalism for that sort of English. News reporting mostly tries to communicate facts straightforwardly, while literature tries to uncover more detailed textures of meaning. So it makes fuller use of the capabilities of the language. I'm not very literary myself, and this book is pretty old, but Moby Dick is imho a good example. It is public domain by now, so you can download it from Project Gutenberg or lots of other places for free. 2601:648:8200:990:0:0:0:F1B9 (talk) 08:27, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Brides of Enderby

Today's anniversary of the North Sea flood of 1953 reminded me of Jean Ingelow's 'The High Tide on the Coast of Lincolnshire, 1571' and the lines

"Play uppe, play uppe, O Boston bells!
Ply all your changes, all your swells,
Play uppe, ‘The Brides of Enderby’"

Apparently "The Brides of Enderby" is or was or is said to be a peal rung at Boston Stump to warn of flooding or other danger. Does or did "The Brides of Enderby" even exist or was it an invention of Miss Ingelow's? If it is real then is there recording of the bells ringing it? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 23:51, 31 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The bells! The bells! As far as I can work out, sadly, the tune never existed. See The Church Bells of of the County and City of Lincoln by Thomas North - File 05 - Pages 277 to 389, Addlethorpe to Dunston from the Whiting Society. This says that the question was asked in Notes and Queries, 6th Series, Vol. 2 Jul-Dec 1880, p. 86:

"The Bride of Enderby." Where can I obtain the tune and words of the above, which Jean Ingelow, in her poem, A High Tide on the Lincolnshire Coast, states to have been rung by the Boston bells as a storm warning ? W. S. C.

The reply comes on p. 198 - "The Brides of Enderby" (6th S. ii. 86).— W. S. C. cannot have the words or the tune, because they never existed. A few years ago, when the chimes were put in Boston Church, a friend of mine, thinking this tune ought to form a part of them, wrote to Jean Ingelow for information. She wrote back that there was no foundation whatever for the tune — that it was all invention on her part. [etc.] signed, R.R.

The North book goes on to say that someone did write a tune for the new Belgian carillon, but it was too florid and otherwise unsuitable. MinorProphet (talk) 02:17, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have summarised this and linked to this discussion on the Talk page of Mavis Enderby, which mentions the supposed peal. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.221.194.253 (talk) 13:04, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks @MinorProphet:, and The poster, much appreciated. It must be well over 30 years since Rudyard Kipling introduced me to the poem. The RefDesks are the 21st century Notes & Queries DuncanHill (talk) 03:20, 2 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think Kipling is often treated as a whipping-boy for British colonialism in general: but in his Plain Tales from the Hills he betrays a deeper love for the entire edifice of British India, including the non-Europeans, than is generally credited to him: I find them on as a parallel with Saki's biting satires of Edwardian England. Long live Notes & Queries in its current incarnation. MinorProphet (talk) 16:34, 2 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@DuncanHill: I was a little pressed for time when I replied to your post. You may have noticed on pp. 327–8 of North's The Church Bells of of the County and City of Lincoln that the new tune for "The Brides of Enderby", composed for the Boston carillon by a local music master in around 1867 when it was installed, was actually pinned on one of the four barrels/drums which controlled the mechanism: but by 1882 this particular tune was no longer being played. Defunct tower bell instruments of the British Isles says that in 1897 the 36 very lightweight bells of the carillon were recast into four quarter bells, and the mechanism was scrapped. So unless someone salvaged the drums (somewhat unlikely), even the the 'ersatz' tune would appear to be lost. A possibly similar mechanism by the same Croydon firm of Gillett and Bland who installed the Boston carillon appears to have been installed in Worcester Cathedral in 1872. The bells, clock and carillon of Worcester Cathedral says that although it was repaired many times the skills to do so these days have been lost. More info at Chiming Machines and The Automatic Chiming System. MinorProphet (talk) 22:03, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]