Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2019 August 2
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August 2
[edit]A government of the second eleven
[edit]The description of Bonar Law's cabinet as "a government of the second eleven" has been ascribed to both Winston Churchill and Lord Birkenhead. I would like to pin it down. Early citations please! Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 10:16, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
- Well, the top 5 hits on a Google search show books all saying it was Churchill--Phil Holmes (talk) 11:24, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
- According to Powell, David (2004). British Politics, 1910-1935: The Crisis of the Party System. Routledge. p. 118. ISBN 978-0415351072., the "second eleven" was Churchill, while Birkenhead, lacking Churchill's skill with the witty one-liners, went for "second class brains". Alansplodge (talk) 17:49, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
- Meanwhile, Ward, Roger (2015). The Chamberlains: Joseph, Austen and Neville 1836-1940. Fonthill Media. p. 60. ISBN 978-1781554470. seems to be alone in ascribing "second eleven" to Birkenhead, as far as Google can tell me. Where and how Churchill made this quip so far eludes me. Alansplodge (talk) 18:03, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
- Neither of those works give a source. Now, the earliest work I can find giving the line to Churchill is A. J. P. Taylor's English History 1914-1945, published in 1965, which also gives the "second-class brains" remark to Birkenhead. A lot of works published since then paraphrase remarkably closely Taylor's words. Max Beaverbrook, who after all knew everybody involved (and was to some extent involved himself), gives the "second eleven" to Birkenhead, in his The Decline and Fall of Lloyd George, published in 1963. In Ball, Stuart (2013). "Ministers". Portrait of a Party: The Conservative Party in Britain 1918-1945. Oxford University Press. p. 415. ISBN 9780199667987. we read "Birkenhead's virulence after the fall of the Coalition confirmed this hostility, and wounding phrases such as the dismissal of Bonar Law's Cabinet as 'the second eleven' were deeply resented[80]". The reference given is "Derby to Younger, 13 November, to Salvidge, 17 November 1922, Derby MSS, 31/8, 8/8". Now I don't have access to the Derby manuscripts, but that seems to me pretty conclusive that it was Birkenhead. What I am looking for are any references to the remark in print before Taylor (1965), and preferably before Beaverbrook (1964) too. My suspicion is that Taylor was caught by a wave of Churchillian Drift, and with his old paymaster the Beaver having died in 1964 there was nobody who cared to correct him. Other writers since have just copied Taylor, almost word for word, and without a citation. DuncanHill (talk) 18:28, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
- I'm afraid this may muddy the waters, but I thought of looking in Hansard. The phrase appears once in the relevant time period, but the speaker was Ryland Adkins on 4 Dec 1922. The sentence: "It was a speech as full of Protection as polished and artful English can be—as full of Protection in its own way as the speech of the hon. Member who has just sat down, and now we know, not only from the benches below the Gangway, but from those high in office, in the second eleven, that what informs their mind and inspires their feelings is not the even now limited scope of this Act, but the desire of applying Protection wherever they can." Of course, that doesn't mean he wasn't borrowing from someone else who said it outside of Parliament, but it does show Taylor didn't invent the phrase even if the correct speaker remains unclear. It would be grand if anyone here has access to search the Times archives. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 20:24, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
- P.S. Searching google books for the phrase from 1922-1964 brings up one result: Chambers's Encyclopaedia 1959, Volume 5 - Page 296. It's snippet view - hope this link works. The text is "Lloyd George at once resigned, followed by Chamberlain, Birkenhead, Balfour and most of the leading Conservatives, and Bonar Law was obliged to form what Winston Churchill described as 'a government of the second eleven'." 70.67.193.176 (talk) 20:33, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
- Churchill does use it ("a government of what one might call "the second eleven") in The Gathering Storm, but that was over twenty years after the events - and after the sources given in Stuart Ball. DuncanHill (talk) 21:27, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
- P.S. Searching google books for the phrase from 1922-1964 brings up one result: Chambers's Encyclopaedia 1959, Volume 5 - Page 296. It's snippet view - hope this link works. The text is "Lloyd George at once resigned, followed by Chamberlain, Birkenhead, Balfour and most of the leading Conservatives, and Bonar Law was obliged to form what Winston Churchill described as 'a government of the second eleven'." 70.67.193.176 (talk) 20:33, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
- I'm afraid this may muddy the waters, but I thought of looking in Hansard. The phrase appears once in the relevant time period, but the speaker was Ryland Adkins on 4 Dec 1922. The sentence: "It was a speech as full of Protection as polished and artful English can be—as full of Protection in its own way as the speech of the hon. Member who has just sat down, and now we know, not only from the benches below the Gangway, but from those high in office, in the second eleven, that what informs their mind and inspires their feelings is not the even now limited scope of this Act, but the desire of applying Protection wherever they can." Of course, that doesn't mean he wasn't borrowing from someone else who said it outside of Parliament, but it does show Taylor didn't invent the phrase even if the correct speaker remains unclear. It would be grand if anyone here has access to search the Times archives. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 20:24, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
- Neither of those works give a source. Now, the earliest work I can find giving the line to Churchill is A. J. P. Taylor's English History 1914-1945, published in 1965, which also gives the "second-class brains" remark to Birkenhead. A lot of works published since then paraphrase remarkably closely Taylor's words. Max Beaverbrook, who after all knew everybody involved (and was to some extent involved himself), gives the "second eleven" to Birkenhead, in his The Decline and Fall of Lloyd George, published in 1963. In Ball, Stuart (2013). "Ministers". Portrait of a Party: The Conservative Party in Britain 1918-1945. Oxford University Press. p. 415. ISBN 9780199667987. we read "Birkenhead's virulence after the fall of the Coalition confirmed this hostility, and wounding phrases such as the dismissal of Bonar Law's Cabinet as 'the second eleven' were deeply resented[80]". The reference given is "Derby to Younger, 13 November, to Salvidge, 17 November 1922, Derby MSS, 31/8, 8/8". Now I don't have access to the Derby manuscripts, but that seems to me pretty conclusive that it was Birkenhead. What I am looking for are any references to the remark in print before Taylor (1965), and preferably before Beaverbrook (1964) too. My suspicion is that Taylor was caught by a wave of Churchillian Drift, and with his old paymaster the Beaver having died in 1964 there was nobody who cared to correct him. Other writers since have just copied Taylor, almost word for word, and without a citation. DuncanHill (talk) 18:28, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
- Meanwhile, Ward, Roger (2015). The Chamberlains: Joseph, Austen and Neville 1836-1940. Fonthill Media. p. 60. ISBN 978-1781554470. seems to be alone in ascribing "second eleven" to Birkenhead, as far as Google can tell me. Where and how Churchill made this quip so far eludes me. Alansplodge (talk) 18:03, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
- According to Powell, David (2004). British Politics, 1910-1935: The Crisis of the Party System. Routledge. p. 118. ISBN 978-0415351072., the "second eleven" was Churchill, while Birkenhead, lacking Churchill's skill with the witty one-liners, went for "second class brains". Alansplodge (talk) 17:49, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
- Sort of tangential but what does "second eleven" literally refer to? Like a reserve team in soccer/football? Adam Bishop (talk) 14:39, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, the reserve team. You might like to read our article on Second XI Championship. Dbfirs 14:52, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
- Ah neat...I forgot cricket teams also have 11 players. Adam Bishop (talk) 12:14, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
- ... and I'd forgotten that there was another sport with eleven players on a team! Dbfirs 20:46, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
- Ah neat...I forgot cricket teams also have 11 players. Adam Bishop (talk) 12:14, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, the reserve team. You might like to read our article on Second XI Championship. Dbfirs 14:52, 3 August 2019 (UTC)