Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2014 September 28

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September 28

followup on what did trans people do before modern surgery

We recently had a question on the above topic, I think on this desk. I had mentioned a reference on Siberian shamanism. This comment from a very old thread might also be relevant: Lev Shternberg documents men living as women (by dress and speech) among the Nivkh people in his classic work, The Social Organization of the Gilyak (Anthropological Papers of the American Museum of Natural History). μηδείς (talk) 16:59, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I recall that some American Indian LBGT individuals were described as "two spirits" people (male and female), and this was seen as a good thing. StuRat (talk) 22:54, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Those are often called berdaches, and a Sioux word for it is winkte, although I am guessing at a spelling, since I have only heard the word, and the -in- represents a nasal -i-. And no, there is usually no stigma, and may be prestige attached. There's a fictional depiction in the movie Little Big Man. μηδείς (talk) 01:53, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

On a related note, there are the Albanian sworn virgins. These seem to be mostly have been cisgender women who chose to live as men for social reasons, but no doubt this route attracted its share of true transmen as well. - Eron^Talk 17:50, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Because there was no adequate or safe surgery, most transgendered people would practice cross-dressing or, what we call now, be a transvestite. One example of this is Abbe Francois Timoleon De Choisy (born in 1644). His mother was on good terms with Anne of Austria and she often dressed her son up in women's' clothing. As an adult, he continued to dress like this. Another example would be King Henry/Henri III of France. Here is the bibliography for that. Most people back then might have considered themselves transgender but they probably followed the definition of Transexual in today's terms. Sjackson0257 (talk) 03:12, 4 October 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sjackson0257 (talk • contribs) 03:08, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

References

American Civil War Veterans

Were the majority of American Civil War Veterans that moved to California, Union army or Confederate army veteran? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.236.65 (talk) 18:29, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

As a first step. I checked to see if this information was recorded in the US Census in years after the Civil War. In the 1870 Census, they just asked where the person and his parents were born, which would give some inkling, but it did not say whether they were a veteran and for which side if so. Similarly the 1880 and 1900 Census did not inquire about veteran information. The 1890 Census was partially burned by accident, then most of the surviving census returns were destroyed by the government for reasons that remain unclear. Finally we get to the 1910 Census, where question 30 asked whether the person was a veteran of the US or Confederate army or navy. I have not found the instructions yet which the censustakers used in coding the responses. This datasource would at lease let you know which side they were on if they were in California 45 years after the war ended.I expect that cross tabulations of this information were created in the years after 1910. A random sample could be examined as a crude check. Edison (talk) 03:02, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

The instruction in 1910 said to ask males who might have been in the war if they were veterans of the was and to enter UA, CA, UN, CN for Union or Confederate army or navy for veterans per [1]. Some of the forms have numbers in this field which do not seem to be related to veteran status, but rather to other classifications for the individual. Edison (talk) 03:09, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

This is not a thoroughly researched and scientific answer, but I looked at an arbitrarily choses enumeration district in southern California, one in Los Angeles County, and one in northern California, and in each case there were far more Union Army veterans than Confederate Army vets, and out of 62 veterans identified in the pages examined, only 4 were Confederate. There were far more Union soldiers than Confederate to begin with, but not that big a discrepancy. There might have been certain vicinities where ex-confederates tended to migrate. Or they might have lied to the census taker, but it seems unlikely they would worry about retribution 55 years after the war. Or maybe the Confederates tended to die younger. Edison (talk) 04:06, 29 September 2014 (UTC)