Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2009 April 7

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April 7

Joke or anecdote about tiger-repelling stone

What is the origin of the following joke/anecdote sometimes used to demonstrate belief in pseudoscience or fallacious logic? A man claims he has a stone that can repel tigers. When a friend reprimands him by saying "There are no tigers anywhere around here!", he replies with "Then the stone must be working!". 69.224.37.48 (talk) 01:40, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I originally heard it as an elephant joke. So, attempting to find an origin with "tigers" may be very difficult as it has obviously changed over time. -- kainaw™ 01:48, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Lisa Simpson uses this logic anecdote on Homer Simpson in an episode of The Simpsons, with the OP's wording. It's followed by Homer offering to buy Lisa's tiger-repelling rock. It has the ring of a Chinese tale to it, but that's just a hunch. Steewi (talk) 05:59, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

A number of online "sources" relate this (in the tiger version) as a Nasreddin story, though it's not one of the examples presented in our article. Make of that what you will; it's certainly a hoary gag in any event. Deor (talk) 12:19, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

The fallacy is confirmation bias, incidentally. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 12:16, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Our article McGuffin refers to a 1966 interview where it's quoted, so at least as old as that. DJ Clayworth (talk) 13:41, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Ancient Japanese & Chinese's thoughts of the Pacific Ocean

Did the ancient Japanese and the ancient Chinese think the edge of the world was in the Pacific Ocean? In ancient times, did the Japanese and the Chinese attempt to travel far in the Pacific Ocean to see what was there? 72.136.108.97 (talk) 03:02, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

The Chinese did have their notion of Mount Penglai, a mystical place in the Bohai Sea, and the first emperor Qin Shihuang did send some people over there to find it. bibliomaniac15 03:20, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

One ancient Chinese "land" that lay beyond the seas was Fusang. Many modern (and often fanciful) theory have variously identified this as Japan or even North America. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 04:10, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

We have an article on Chinese exploration which talks about their travels through the oceans. Adam Bishop (talk) 04:29, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

You guys didn't answer my second question. What was the farest eastern point did the ancient Chinese/Japanese travel in the Pacific Ocean? Did any ancient Chinese/Japanese fisherman sail far to the east? 72.136.108.97 (talk) 02:38, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

If you subscribe to vacuous hypotheses, some say that the ancient Chinese reached as far south as Australia or as far east as North America. I wouldn't be inclined to agree with them. I would say about as far as the Philippines, Malaysia, and Indonesia, because we do have evidence that they traded. bibliomaniac15 02:58, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

OP: we did, you know. Take a look at the pages linked here. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 03:25, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

One problem with the Chinese and Japanese exploration of the Pacific Ocean was that their latitudes the prevailing wind generally came from the east--making it hard to get all that far east by ship. And even if one tried there was little to be found. A more reliable westerly wind zone can be found at or somewhat north of Japan, which could in theory take a ship all the way across the Pacific to North America. But at this latitude there are no notable islands along the way. So you'd be looking at a very very long voyage into totally uncharted seas with no guarantee of finding anything worth the effort. And even if an expedition did make it to the Americas, then what? What what China gain from an economic relationship with the Native Americans of the west coast of North America, especially given the extremely long voyage across the Pacific? Further such a loop requires not just a way to get across west to east, but to return east to west. This requires working out the wind patterns on a large scale. The Spanish figured it out, but it took them quite a long time. For some time they only knew how to cross the Pacific east to west. As far as i know the Chinese of the 13th or 14th centuries were technologically capable of launching such a voyage, but rather lacked a good reason to try it. At the time China was in a number of ways the center of the world. There was little need to China to send out expensive long-range sailing expeditions since everyone who was able to do so was already traveling to China eager to trade on good terms. The Zheng He expedition stand out against this general background. But note that Zheng He was not an explorer of unknown lands, and certainly did not cross unknown oceans just to see what was there. His voyages plied the well-known ancient routes which mariners had long used to get to China. As our article says, the purpose was to "establish a Chinese presence, impose imperial control over trade, and impress foreign peoples in the Indian Ocean basin. He also might have wanted to extend the tributary system." This is more like the "big stick" of Theodore Roosevelt's Great White Fleet than an exploration venture. Another angle is that at this early time, before European ships broke out onto the global stage, the richest sealanes were those of the Indian Ocean. The European sea-trading and exploration expansion sprang from a desire to tap the riches of this Indian Ocean-and-Chinese trading sphere, and found numerous islands that served a "stepping stones" along the way. The bold idea of sailing west to reach Asia would have ended in utter failure were it not for the Americas lying in the way. And even then Columbus's ability to use the easterly trade winds to west from the Canary Islands and feel confident about being able to locate and use westerly winds at the latitude of Spain in order to return home was based on numerous smaller ventures that had linked Spain and Portugal with the Canaries and Azores; in the process working out the basic wind-patterns of the central North Atlantic. The Pacific Ocean is far wider than the Atlantic. If Columbus had had to sail clear to Asia, west from Spain, with no notable islands along the way, the entire European Age of Discovery might have floundered. At best Europeans might have nudged their way into the ancient Indian Ocean network and through somewhat-advanced technology made inroads. Now consider China, a major part of the Indian Ocean network (even if not technically on the Indian Ocean, definitely tightly linked) and growing rich from its trade. Meanwhile, to the east lies a vast ocean. The quick, westerly-wind route across has no islands along the way. The lower latitude route that does have lots of islands features easterly-winds. Of course, it is always wise to head into unknown water against the wind, so you can return home if you need to. This strategy was used by the Polynesians--sailing into the wind. But those last

Another comment, on the question: You guys didn't answer my second question. What was the farest eastern point did the ancient Chinese/Japanese travel in the Pacific Ocean? Did any ancient Chinese/Japanese fisherman sail far to the east? Remember that in order for any voyage into unknown seas to become documented "back home" requires not only the ability to sail far into unknown waters but also to return home and tell of it. I would not be surprised if Chinese and Japanese vessels occasionally did find themselves whisked far into the Pacific--maybe clear to the Americas. But without an understanding of the large scale wind patterns the chances of returning home would have been slim. There are apparently accounts of old wrecks of Chinese and Japanese vessels on the shores of North America. I'm not sure I believe these accounts, but even if true, it is hard to believe the crews were ever able to return to Asia. Thus the question of how far the Chinese and Japanese traveled into the Pacific must be rephrased "how far did they travel into the Pacific and return to tell the tale?" This is a different question, and I don't know the answer. Pfly (talk) 05:27, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

i am smashed with a baby in a room

hi i need help with something...

i share a room with my brother who is thirteen years younger than me. i wish i could have my own room but we dont have room in my house. i am fine sharing a room with him its just that i dont have any place thats just my own. ive looked online and found nothing about this subject.i need to find a way to either seperate my room, or find some space to myself —Preceding unsigned comment added by Smashedwithbaby (talk • contribs) 04:27, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Hang a bedsheet across one corner? —Tamfang (talk) 05:41, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Use gyprock boards? Look up a such a tradesperson in your local phone directory? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 06:11, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

A Room of One's Own? Wrad (talk) 06:23, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Ask your parents to be allowed to furnish a small corner of the attic, basement, garage, garden shed, or similar (if you have any of those things) with things you buy cheaply or get for free, and have that place as your own when you need some time alone during the day, while continiuing to sleep in your "real" room at night? Jørgen (talk) 14:50, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. If none of those are available, and if you have a yard, you could also build a tree house or club house outside, either from a prefab kit or from scratch (lumber, etc.). Another approach might be to continue to share the same room but to make a schedule of times when the room is all yours (and times when it's all his, if he wishes). The person kicked out can hang out in the kitchen or other rooms for those periods. StuRat (talk) 05:53, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Watch The Baby Borrowers and be grateful that you are getting this contraceptive inoculation for free. In other words, it sounds from your reaction that you don't really enjoy the close and unending company of babies and young children. In a few years, perhaps sex will be an appealing and realistic possibility for you. You will then, even with the strong pull of teenage hormones and desire, remember to do what is necessary to stop yourself from becoming a parent. (Of course, if your partner is of the same sex, that's one thing you don't need to worry about.) BrainyBabe (talk) 22:14, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

What? Have you posted on the wrong question?--KageTora (talk) 00:28, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

No. The question appears to come from a teenager. I am pointing out one possible longer-term benefit of this shared room arrangement. In other words, even if you don't like a situation, you can learn from it. BrainyBabe (talk) 16:02, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

But when he's a parent, he will presumably have a separate room or rooms to put the kids in, so your comments are irrelevant. Luwilt (talk) 12:54, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

He (or she) is not likely to have "a room of one's own" should parenthood come at the age of 16, but a room, shared with the baby, under the (grand)parents' roof. Teenagers have sex. Knowing that babies are not great room-mates is an additional piece of information that may add to the teenagers' efforts to ensure that sex does not lead to pregnancy. Anatomy, physiology, and contraception can be dealt with intellectually and taught at school; recognising one's lack of readiness to be a parent is an emotional realisation, a life lesson if you will, and this bedroom-sharing venture is one path to that self-knowledge. BrainyBabe (talk) 19:17, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Also, the OP should stop getting smashed when there is a baby in the room. Alcohol and kids don't mix very well.--KageTora (talk) 12:00, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Quite right. Even the dregs in a few beer bottles can be enough to affect a toddler dangerously. BrainyBabe (talk) 19:17, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Where did I read that there are only N types of joke?

I read in the Metro (our free daily) recently that some researcher had done a study and found that there were only 8? 7? types of jokes. There was a list of types, and I think one was juxtaposition? Can anyone else put their finger on this? I'm trying to find the list. -- Beland (talk) 04:51, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

There are N types of people, whose who think that there are only M types of jokes and those who do not. :-) --Anonymous, 05:03 UTC, April 7, 2009.

Scott Adams, the author of Dilbert writes about 6 bases of humour, and any good joke must juxtapose two of them. If I recall correctly, they were cuteness, timing, animals, slapstick, ... and ... Dang. Steewi (talk) 06:02, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm not a math genius, and do not understand the question if '8? 7?' actually means something, but won't there always be at least n+1 (where n=i) jokes? 96.227.82.128 (talk) 07:28, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

It just means I don't remember whether the "study" found there were 7 types or 8 types, but it was around there. The result was not about the number of tellable jokes, but the basic patterns that allegedly underlie them. -- Beland (talk) 13:30, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Got it! Researcher discovers eight jokes -- Beland (talk) 01:34, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

binary?

In terms of binary-based humor there are exactly 10 kinds of jokes...but neither of them is funny :( —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.27.153.209 (talk) 08:30, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

The White House and Art

I'd asked this before, not realizing that the original question was archived, so I ask again: An episode of the tv show The West Wing mentioned that the president can have anything from The Smithsonian to decorate the White House. President Bartlet jokes that he wants Apollo 11. Is there any truth to this, that the Prez can have any piece of art he wants? Taggart.BBS (talk) 07:06, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I have no direct knowledge of this, and I think your best bet is to contact the Smithsonian, cite the West Wing banter, and ask them. They probably already joke about this. Since the Smithsonian, according to our article, essentially belongs to and is run by the US government, that means it's overseen and run by the executive branch, which is headed by the President, so there's a case that he could order a piece brought to the White House, particularly if the piece were placed in a publicly accessible area, in order to comport with the Smithsonian's mandate to increase & diffuse knowledge. Tempshill (talk) 19:58, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

The Smithsonian Institution#Administration section suggests that the institution isn't part of the executive branch, but is a special trust, self-administered and overseen by representatives from all three branches of the US Government. That, on the face of it, would suggest the President is in no position to give it direct instructions (and I rather suspect the whole thing is a West Wing setup for the joke, and nothing more). Anyway, the President can just get artworks from the BPRD, and they'll have better stuff to boot. 87.115.166.150 (talk) 20:54, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Another Köchel question

I just listened to the music from this Mozart CD, which includes a symphony labelled as K.196 — the opera La finta giardiniera. I then turned to the opera; its first few minutes sound like the first and second movements of the "symphony", but I can't find the third anywhere in the opera. Any idea where it could be? Moreover, was this a common thing to do, to write a symphony for an operatic overture? I mean for composers of the period, not necessarily Mozart. Nyttend (talk) 16:14, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

There's a confusion here. Overtures to operas (and sometimes purely instrumental sections found at the start or even in the middle of oratorios etc) were often called sinfonias. Sinfonia and symphony have the same etymology, but the meanings have diverged since Mozart's time. A symphony is now a piece designed for concert performance, usually in 4 movements. The start of La finta giardiniera is best described as a "sinfonia", or even "overture". The music is part of the opera, and is not one of Mozart's symphonies. The record company or whoever designed that website didn't do their homework, methinks. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:09, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Google Street View

Hi,

I wasn't sure whether this should go in computing but i reckon, as its a cultural phenomenon, it should go here. Anyhoo, I live in Rangelagh Road in North London which is a one way street. Annoying, Google street view doesn't cover my house - because, I think, the stupid car just didn't go there. (you can travel on all the streets connecting to mine, but just not mine). Can i complain to Google in someway? 82.40.246.228 (talk) 19:49, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Maybe get as close to it as possible, in "Street View," and then click on "Report A Problem," which is on the bottom of Street View. But I don't think they cover every street in Street view. Bus stop (talk) 20:00, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Funny, I think that in the UK, Google's usually concerned about the opposite reaction to yours. Tempshill (talk) 20:00, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Just because it isn't in Street View now doesn't mean it won't be soon. I saw the car in our office estate in Leeds (in July last year); while Google StreetView shows quite a lot of Leeds, they've not added that area (the nearest covered area is about half a mile away). So I guess they're compiling what they have and will be adding more as they go on. The office estate in question isn't properly covered in either Google Maps or by the satellite photo (the sat photo shows a field with cows), so clearly the car guys are working with a later map. 87.115.166.150 (talk) 20:26, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Google Street View is new to the UK, and there are hundreds of streets missing within the cities they claim to cover, which they will no doubt fill in later. I don't think complaining to Google will have any effect whatever. It's not as though you've paid for something that they haven't provided.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 10:50, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Similarly, they didn't bother with my cul-de-sac in Bristol. Obviously didn't fancy turning round in the tight spot at the end for 10m of coverage. Shame. They also didn't make an effort with Vale Street in Totterdown, which is the steepest residential road in Europe. IMO these google drivers need to strap on a pair. LHMike (talk) 13:38, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Accounting in Europe

I am doing a research in the corporate reporting obligations for non-listed companies in three European countries (Luxembourg, The Netherlands and Switzerland). Can anyone help me with these questions referred to anyone of the countries researched: 1. With which accounting standards should the financial statements be drawn?. 2. Are consolidated financial statements mandatory?. 3. Should the financial statements (of the parent company and consolidated) be audited?. 4. Which is the publicity of the financial statements?. 5. The constitution of a legal reserve is mandatory?.

If anyone knows of webpages I can consult I will be very grateful.

Thanks a lot —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.117.158.108 (talk) 20:07, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Falun Gong and the Boxers

So the other day I was idly wondering just why the PROC seems to have it in so much for Falun gong, which seems pretty harmless. The article cites a number of reasons, none of which seem plausible. But then I happened to see one of my notes on the Boxer Rebellion, which of course raised other memories of things like the Yellow Turban Rebellion. Is that the real reason, that the party fears Falun Gong is going to become another religion-based insurrection? --Gwern (contribs) 20:17 7 April 2009 (GMT)

"Insurrection" may be going further than the PRC's government fears, but the CPPRC shares the preoccupation of earlier Chinese governments with stability at all costs, and FG may well upset that applecart. The government is clearly concerned that FG could be a competing centre of political power; indeed it's concerned about all religions (and philosophical movements) adopting that role. Consequently there is much state intervention in religion in China. I guess FG scares them more because a) it's grown so very quickly, and b) because it doesn't really have a hierarchy, so that makes it more difficult to understand (or control). I don't think FG is particularly anti-communist, oppositional, or revolutionary, but clearly it hasn't knuckled under, which makes the threat it poses (or may, to the government, seem to pose) all the more marked. The last sentence in the intro to the Falun Gong article says "Yuezhi Zhao, professor of Communications at the University of California, contends that Falun Gong's massive spread, and sustained activism against its persecution, have unwittingly become the greatest challenge to Chinese state power in recent history, and "the most dramatic episode in the contestation over media power in the Chinese language symbolic universe". 87.115.166.150 (talk) 20:42, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Ah, seems harmless. Without making any judgment on their actual beliefs, their level of organisation and influence scare me a little, and the cynical way they dress themselves up as "cultural" or social organisations - often without a mention of the word "Falun" at all - also concerns me a little. For example, the whole New Tang Dynasty TV enterprise and those mish-mash "Chinese culture" song-and-dance shows they put on (curiously attended only by non-Chinese people), which are all funded by - and go to fund - Falun Gong activities - but you would never guess just looking at their advertising material until you look carefully at the list of associated organisations. I get the feeling that they are a lot better organised than even the Communist government's propaganda makes them out to be.

Apart from these observations, one tangible reason why the Chinese government is extremely wary of the movement is that it has become entangled with anti-Chinese government forces such as the Taiwanese government (documented provider of funds). For example, there was the satellite-hacking episode from quite a few years back now, for which Falun Gong personalities claimed responsibility but which, investigations showed, was conducted from Taiwan.

The Falun Gong media also tries to align itself with the global anti-Communist pro-Chinese democracy discourse, though whether those efforts are reciprocated is unclear. In any case, however, they have aligned themselves as part of what the Communist government fears to be the "global anti-China [read anti-Chinese government] forces".

Funnily enough, Falun Gong is a big issue outside China, but among Chinese people there does not seem to be much sympathy for them. The government's hardline policies are, if not applauded, at least not opposed on that front - as you might suspect, very few people have sympathies for an idiosyncratic sect that preaches, among other things, about the power of UFOs other than the cultists themselves. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 23:17, 7 April 2009 (UTC)