Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2007 September 6

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September 6

How democratic were the colonies? (And in particular: Algeria during the Fourth Republic)

Hello, I have been going through some of the articles on this site but I still haven't been able to find an answer for these questions:

- I know Algeria was an integral part of the French fourth republic after the second world war, but did everything get to vote? Or only those who had been given the French nationality? And if so, were they only "white" settlers, or did many Arabs get it as well? (I know that almost a million "French people" left Algeria and headed for France when the colony became independent. - How about the rest of the parts of Africa ruled by France (and other countries in general)?

Thank you,Evilbu 00:22, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

The issue of voting and representation was one of the great contentious issues in colonial Algeria, Evilbu. Did you read French rule in Algeria and Nationalism and resistance in Algeria?. Clio the Muse 03:20, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

HISTORY

WHY WAS THERE ONLY A SMALL NUMBER OF AFRICAN SLAVES IN THE CARIBBEAN IN THE EARLY 1500'S —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.1.106.82 (talk) 00:51, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Why? Because only a small number had arrived by that time, which is the blindingly obvious answer. Anyway, have a look at the Atlantic Slave Trade Clio the Muse 01:02, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Surely the answer it depends on what you mean by "small number" and by "early 1500s".

Atlantic slave trade says that "The first slaves to arrive as part of a labor force appeared in 1502 on the island of Hispaniola" (only 10 years after Columbus found it note - although presumably a few African slaves could have arrived before 1502 with their European masters) and "Only slightly more than 3 percent of the slaves exported were traded between 1450 and 1600, 16% percent in the 17th century. More than half of them were exported in the 18th century, the remaining 28.5% in the 19th century." So 'only' a few hundred thousand slaves were transported in the following 150 years (compared to the total of c.10 million who are estimated to have arrived in the Americas).

But then, how many Europeans were there in the Carribean in the few decades after Columbus, and how many indigenous people? See Indigenous peoples of the Americas and Population history of American indigenous peoples. Epidemics of influenza and smallpox, and maltreatment, almost eradicated the local populace on the islands, even before the larger epidemics on the mainland in the 1520s. Around 80% of the Taíno died in about 30 years, and more quickly afterwards, leaving perhaps only a few thousands or tens of thousands out of the hundreds of thoudands before the Europeans arrived. The slaves were imported to provide labour after the local pool had evaporated, and could quite quickly have formed a significant proportion of the population, when only a few hundreds or thousands had arrived. -- !! ?? 20:34, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Also a question on French Algeria

I have been reading about the war of liberation against the French and came across a puzzling reference to the 'day of the tomatoes', someting that seesm to have happened in the year 1956. What is the day of the tomatoes and what does it mean? Philip the Arab 06:07, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

In French, it's called "la journée des tomates". Guy Mollet was pelted with rotten tomatoes at a demonstration in Algiers on 6 February 1956, a few weeks after becoming prime minister. In the run-up to the general election on 2 January 1956, Mollet had built a coalition called the Republican Front out of the centre and left-wing parties. This Front won the election, largely thanks to a promise of peace in Algeria, based on negotiations with the FLN liberation front, and Mollet formed a government. He wanted independence for all the French North African colonies, but there were a million French people in Algeria who felt very threatened by this, and when the cabinet was formed it decided not to talk to the FLN. So Mollet's visit to Algiers a few weeks later was a stormy one, with almost everyone against him, and the tomatoes were a sign of that. According to most reports, the tomatoes came from French colonialist hard-liners who were anxious to carry on the war in Algeria, while others claimed they had been thrown by local working people who normally supported Mollet's Socialists but felt let down by him. In any event, he was between a rock and a hard place and vacillated between pursuing the war (he called up hundreds of thousands of new conscripts in February) and negotiating secretly with the FLN, while also getting embroiled in arguments about the situation in Algeria with French church leaders. Then came Suez, which was as much a humiliation for the French as for the British. Mollet went on pouring troops into Algeria, using extreme methods of counter-terrorism and raising taxes to pay for the war. The messy Battle of Algiers (January to October 1957) and the escalating taxes finally discredited him, and his coalition government collapsed in June 1957. Considering how short-lived his government was, with the benefit of hindsight some people later claimed that the day of the tomatoes was the beginning of the end for Mollet. Xn4 07:51, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

arbitration Act... India...

does acontract survive evn after the termination of the agreement its a art of, i had done some research on it an had put it on wikipidia.. but wanna have a detailed view on it....... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.138.120.38 (talk) 06:10, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Song ID help

I heard a song by eminem today in the Union building; it was set the basic tune of song "just lose it"; however, this song was definately not "just lose it". I know eminem sung the chorus, but he may have had a guest rapper for the middle parts. Any ideas on what the song may have been named? TomStar81 (Talk) 06:36, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

bookish question (trivia)

In the late 70's (UK) a paperback could be made out of a quite thin, smooth, white paper. Nowadays the equivalent paperback seems to be made out of a poorer quality thicker paper that is quite rough.

Question. What are the types of paper called?

Question 2. What happened to the older 'nice paper'?87.102.17.39 10:54, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

A huge variety of papers is available today, and nice paper is plentiful but no longer used regularly for paperback books. Paperbacks today often use recycled paper and so-called "woodfree" papers. See paper.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 15:59, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I found this http://www.paperage.com/pulp_paper_terms.html was the 'nice paper' LWC ?

What about the horrible paper, anyone know what that is? (should I be asking on the science desk?)87.102.17.39 17:24, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

"African-American"

How do Americans refer to black people who aren't American? I see in African-American that one reporter did actually refer to some black French people as "African-Americans", but this surely isn't standard? --86.132.151.17 11:23, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

There is no single standard. When the demonym suggests dark skin by default, it can be completely avoided, "Cameroonian" for example. Otherwise, and if it's important for the reader to know the person's skin color, the choices are "Black xyz-ian", "African-xyz-ian" or "Afro-xyz-ian", depending on usage and the author or publisher's preference. I randomly picked the letter "C", and sure enough, there's Black Canadian, African-Caribbean, and Afro-Cuban. The term African-American is reserved for people from the United States and applying it to citizens of any other country, including Antigua, Brazil, or Canada in the Americas, is misleading. Calling French people "African-Americans" is false. Typing Black French into the search box redirects to Afro-European. ---Sluzzelin talk 12:56, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Generally, in the mainstream U.S. media, you will encounter the term "African American" as a fairly glib substitute for the term "black" (i.e., Definition One: A person having origins in any of the black racial groups of Africa.). The former term acting as a direct substitute for the latter, as popularized by Jesse Jackson.

Of course, under the reasoning implied in your question; and for the reason that not everyone born on the continent of Africa meets Definition One above; and because "Africa" designates an entire continent (and not a nationality or ethnicity, such as "French", "Italian", "Serbian", and so forth). This terminology (although quite common in the U.S.) is imprecise and misleading at best, and in the extreme instance, incorrect. Nevertheless, that's what you can expect to find. dr.ef.tymac 14:06, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I had a professor once who referred to Djimon Hounsou's character in Gladiator as "African American". Adam Bishop 14:58, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

This comes up regularly in my workplace. The preferred term is "Black", not "African-American". Most of the black people here are from Africa and are not Americans. The one I work with most often is Nigerian. He is married to a white British woman. He complains that calling him African-American fits him about as well as it fits his wife. There is also an undertone of ire for Americans who want to call themselves African without ever visiting the continent. If you leave tiny pockets of multi-nationalities like my workplace, the preferred term is always "African-American" for anyone who is black, regardless of nationality. -- kainaw™ 15:24, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

African-Americans are just Americans that are black. I'm white, but my heritage is Dutch. Please don't call me Dutch-American because I'm not Dutch. I'm just a white American. Beekone 16:56, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I have seen people tongue-in-cheek referring to Charlize Theron as African-American.  :) Corvus cornix 17:02, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

And I have seen the paladin character in Diablo II described as African-American. Do I win a prize? Algebraist 18:08, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

When I move to Nairobi I want to be referred to as American-African. Seriously. =] HYENASTE 22:26, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

One more: someone here at the ref desk once mentioned that Nelson Mandela was once referred to as an 'African American' by an interviewer. I suppose the term is so common that people no longer realise what it literally means. A related issue is what to call whites. "European American'? And what about the 'Indians' (another misnomer). Are they 'American Americans'? And speaking of misnomers - whites are often referred to as Caucasians, but the real Caucasians (from the Caucasus) are rather dark-skinned, I've heard. DirkvdM 18:20, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I remember hearing Jesse Jackson being interviewed when he was on a visit to the UK and he referred to Afro-Caribbean people here as 'African-Americans'. Made me snort my coffee right up my nose. Sheesh, if educated Americans can't get it right, what hope is there? 86.141.144.173 07:33, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Technically since the Caribbean islands are arguably in the Americas I guess you could say they are of African-American heritage Nil Einne (talk) 20:58, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Philhellenism

Can Philhellenism really be dated no further back than the nineteenth century? Philoctetes M 11:55, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, one contrasts it with Hellenism, the Alexandrine ideal, specifically as the rise of Nationalism, which took place in the 19th century in most nations in the West. Utgard Loki 17:14, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Adamantios Korais

Another Greek question, if I may. The Wikipedia entry on Adamantios Korais has nothing on his political writing, the most significant part of his contribution to the Greek national movement. Who has knowledge of this? Philoctetes M 12:40, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Is there more at the Greek language Wikipedia? I can't read [1]. Corvus cornix 17:03, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

His political writing really begins with the publication at the opening of the nineteenth century of Asma Polemistirion (War Chant) and Salipsma Polemistirion (Military Bugal Call), celebrating the presence of Greek troops fighting alongside the French in Egypt. Earler he had attacked the Greek Patriarch of Jerusulem for urging the Sultan's Christian subjects to support him in the war against the 'atheistic' French. Korais went on to publish in 1803 his Report on the Present State of Civilization in Greece, based on a series of lectures he had given in Paris, extolling the link between the rise of a new Greek mercantile class and the advance of Neo-Hellenism. In What should we Greeks do in the Present Circumstances?, a work of 1805, he tried to win his compatriots over to Napoleon and away from the cause of their Russian co-religionists. In later years, though, his enthusiasm for the French Emperor diminished, and he ended by referring to him as the 'tyrant of tyrants.'

Away from contemporary politics, Kotais did much to revive the idea of Greece with the creation of the Hellenic Library, devoted to new editions of some of the classic texts, starting with Homer in 1805. Over the following twenty years many others appeared, with lengthy prefaces by Kotais entitled 'Impromptu Reflections', with his views on political, educational and linguistic matters. Although the broad mass of the Greek people was beyond his reach, he played an important part in the shaping of a new consciousness among the intelligentsia, which was to play a part in the creation of a new national movement. Clio the Muse 02:27, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Consolidated city-counties

Even after reading Consolidated city-county, I'm still not very sure how they work in places where some independent municipalities exist, such as Marion County, Indiana or Wyandotte County, Kansas. I don't understand really what it's like, for example, in Indianapolis' suburbs, such as Southport, Indiana: if the county and the city are consolidated, how is it that Southport is part of one but not part of the other? Can the city council tell Southport what to do, even though it's not part of the city? Do Southport residents have Bart Peterson as their mayor, as well as Nannette Tunget? Or is it somewhat like (not to say that it's Communist) the USSR in its later years, in which the non-Russian republics were less linked to the USSR than was Russia; for example, Russia not having its own Communist Party organisation, as did the others — in other words, Indianapolis in a roundabout way actually has fewer rights than the other municipalities? I've talked with friends of mine in Indianapolis, and I still can't quite understand it. Nyttend 15:47, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I think it works like this: Under Indiana law, counties have some competencies, and municipalities have others. Most of the municipalities in Marion County have ceded their competencies to the consolidated city-county. Apparently, Indianapolis has ceded many, but not all, of its competencies to the consolidated city-county. However, a few municipalities, such as Southport, have not conceded their municipal competencies to the consolidated government. The consolidated government has jurisdiction in these municipalities only over county-specific matters, while these municipalities have full jurisdiction in municipality-specific matters, such as policing. Marco polo 16:08, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

• The even shorter answer: the USA has never had a standard way of allocating power among the various sub-components of a state. Each state is free to experiment wildly, and many do. --M@rēino 20:12, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Michel Tournier researchers' forum

good morning. i am doing doctoral research on the works of the french writer Michel Tournier on the theme of quest. i would like to know if there are any forum where i can meet other researchers who do research on the same authour or similar subject. thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.11.44.148 (talk) 15:49, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't know of one, although there's a Talk page for the Tournier wikibiography with nothing on it yet except formal notices. Similar discussion pages for articles on other writers have developed into the kind of forum you may be looking for (see Talk:Arthur Conan Doyle, for example). By chance, we answered a question about Gemini on the Language desk this week (see Gemini by Michel Tournier). Xn4 21:05, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Body Thievin'

I just finished Anne Rice's #IV book in The Vampire Chronicles series The_Tale_of_the_Body_Thief. Basically the main character Lestat de Lioncourt switches bodies with a sort of guru mystery man named Raglan James. I'm not ruining the story with spoilers considering the title. The book goes into details on how the procedure is done. Afterwards I did my WikiResearch onBody_swap & Mind_transfer, I also read the articles on, and I forgot the medical terminology for these, nor can I recall my search, the pyschological cases of people thinking their loved ones or others are not the same person. there were a list of these terms, and research done on the person with that thought, but not on the actual individuals that were questioned. My question is, is there any records or stories of people that actually said they were switched? --i am the kwisatz haderach 17:29, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

An actor [2] of SCTV fame has recently been found guilty of criminal harassment in respect of his wife and children. The defence pled Capgras delusion on his behalf. It is a psychiatric syndrome that has the sufferer believe that those close to him/her are imposters. Bielle 18:06, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

If by "stories", you mean fiction, there is everything from Invasion of the body snatchers to Granny Weatherwax in Terry Pratchet's Discword science-fantasy series who "borrows" the minds of anilmals. Bielle 18:12, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the Capras delusion you mentioned reminded me of the others Fregoli delusion, Intermetamorphosis, Cotard delusion =found under the Delusional misidentification syndrome page. These are all syndromes that do relate to psychotics, but my question (and on non-fiction actual event) is whether or not someone has claimed to have acheived this Body Switching? I guess it could fall under Possession, but I wanted to know if researchers ever investigated the people accused of being someone else? And if the accused confessed? I don't seem to find any actual cases, short of the Salem Witch Trials, but that was something else. --i am the kwisatz haderach 19:47, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Political Theory National Schizophrenia

Wiki's Schizophrenia mentions the Greek roots being "to split" "mind". Could an entire nation have this split mind, lets say one half thinks wholey-minded and sound, and the other half a totally different wholey-minded soundness, but when the two are next/or against each other, then comes the bizarre delusions or disorganized speech and thinking? --i am the kwisatz haderach 17:30, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

A nation could be schizophrenic only metaphorically, since it has not a single mind but a myriad of minds. Marco polo 17:38, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, there was a poll question in the USA a few years back about whether George W. Bush was a uniter or a divider. 50% said uniter, 50% said divider. John Z 18:44, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

You might find the work of Lloyd deMause interesting — in his Foundations of Psychohistory he talks a lot about the idea of nations suffering from delusions or from massive psychological disorders and the like, if I remember correctly (group fantasy?). I think it is mostly trash, personally—it seems to have no intellectual rigor whatsoever from what I can tell. --140.247.242.79 19:01, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Nelson Mandela's terrorism

to what extent was Nelson Mandela involved in the terrorist actvities of MK before his imprisonment? what sort of stuff was he trying to do? how apologetic has he been for what he did/planned? his wikipedia page has very little, and his autobiography is written by him (obviously) so from an NPOV, what were his crimes? thanks 81.109.5.212 18:36, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Nelson Mandela was a strong supporter of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission (South Africa) although I don't believe he ever appeared before it himself Nil Einne 15:25, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

From what I can tell from Nelson Mandela and Umkhonto we Sizwe before he was arrested most of the attacks were intended to sabotage rather then taking lives and were directed at the apartheid government and military. You'll likely find they don't fid many modern definitions of terrorism. MK does appear to have committed terrorist attacks in the 80s particularly but this was when Mandela was already imprisoned. He apparently did plan a guerrilla warfare campaign and so some of the later activities may have been partially inspired by his plans but I don't think you could say he planned them Nil Einne 15:33, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Note that the word terrorism is extremely vague. It seems the UN doesn't even have a definition of it because they can't agree on what it means. It's basically name-calling. One could just as well call the former South African government a terrorist organisation. One reason they weren't called that is that it was the official representation of a country. Even Hitler wasn't called a terrorist. Along this line of reasoning, one should call the resistance groups of WWII terrorist organisations, which was quite a point of debate here in the Netherlands after Bush started his 'war on terrorism'. "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." (or how did that go again?) So when you ask what Mandela's crimes were, you should first define 'crime'. One could also call him a crime-fighter. DirkvdM 18:28, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Mussolini's corpse

While we are on the subject of 'body thevin' I heard that Mussolini's had a particularly bizarre 'political postmortem'. There is a little info. on his page, though not very much. What's the story here? Captainhardy 18:37, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Do you mean the "[his body] was stolen briefly in the late 1950s by neo-fascists, then again returned to Predappio" bit? That seems clear, if brief. His body was briefly stolen by neo-facists. Just think what they would have done with Hitler's body if he hadn't ordered his body to be burnt. Carcharoth 20:08, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Apparently this body traveled; see reviews Body of Il Duce: Mussolini's Corpse and the Fortunes of Italy --i am the kwisatz haderach 21:15, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I have only a vague memory of all this, but it's pretty small beer compared with what was done to the remains of Oliver Cromwell after the Restoration! Xn4 21:17, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Ah, the politics of the dead, a subject which reveals so much about the living, whether it be over the fate of Evita in Argentina or Lenin in Russia. The perambulations of the dead Duce gives wonderful insight into the political health of post-war Italy.

After his death, and the display of his corpse in Milan, Mussolini was buried in an unmarked grave in Musocco, the municipal cemetery to the north of the city. On Easter Sunday 22 April 1946 (not the 1950s!) his body was located and dug up by Domenico Leccisi and two other neo-Fascists. Makang off with their hero, they left a bizarre message on the open grave "Finally, O Duce, you are with us. We will cover you with roses, but the smell of your virtue will overpower the smell of those roses." On the loose for months-and a cause of grteat anxiety to the new Italian democracy-the Duce was finally 'recaptured' in August, hiding in a small trunk at the Certosa di Pavia, just outside Milan. Two Fransciscan brother's were subsequently charged with concealing the corpse, though it was discovered on further investigation that he had been constantly on the move!

However, the Duce found was just as much of an embarrassment as the Duce lost to the fragile Italian government. This was a subject that divided the nation into mutually hostile camps; and unsure what to do, the authorities held the remains in a kind of political limbo for ten years, before agreeing to allow them to be re-interred at Predappio in Emila, his birth place, after a campaign headed by Leccisi and the Movimento Sociale Italiano. Leccisi, now a fascist deputy, went on to write his autobiography, With Mussolini Before and After Piazzale Loreto. In the end it was, once again, all down to politics. Adone Zoli, the Prime Minister of the day, contacted Donna Rachelle, the former dictator's widow, to tell her he was returning the remains. He did so for one simple reason: he needed the support of the far-right in parliament, including Leccisi himself.

In Predappio Mussolini's tomb has become something of a fascist Mecca, constantly guarded by grim-faced, black-caped attendants. The whole thing is really quite vulgar, with Fascist kitsch on sale to the hordes of people who come to pay their respects, a source of both embarrassment and income to the left-wing local authorities! Clio the Muse 01:38, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

This reminds me of burial places of monarchs in the British Isles. Some of those bodies travelled as well. Carcharoth 14:35, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Specifically, Richard I of England (heart buried in Rouen), Robert the Bruce (his heart was removed, taken on Crusade, then buried at Melrose Abbey), and the best story of all, with James II of England: "James' body was not actually buried - but remained in a coffin for a transfer to Westminster Abbey that never happened. His brain went the Scots College in Paris, his heart to the Convent of the Visitandine Nuns at Chaillot, and his bowels to the English Church of St. Omer and the parish church of St. Germain-en-Laye. All the body parts were lost during the French Revolution except the praecordia which was rediscovered in 1824 at the parish church of St. Germain-en-Laye, where it still remains." Fascinating! Carcharoth 14:39, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Paintings depicting battle, death and war

I've been making a list of Wikipedia articles on paintings depicting battle, death and war. See User:Carcharoth/Paintings depicting battle, death and war. I'm after more articles on paintings like those ones. Not just any old painting, but ones we have articles on, or ones you think we should have articles on. I found those ones in Category:Paintings and its subcategories. Can anyone think of, or find, any other painting articles on these themes? Bonus points for contributing new entries to the much narrower-in-scope Category:Paintings of people crossing geographical features. Carcharoth 20:12, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

There should definitely be an article about Vereshchagin's Apotheosis of War (1871), supposedly inspired by an episode from Tamerlane's wars of conquest. --Ghirla^-трёп- 19:27, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

My god there must be hundreds, now does the death have to be a war death - otherwise there are many more such as The_Death_of_Marat

Goya did some on the Peninsular war [[3]]

I must have seen hundreds relating to napoleonic battles eg see Battle of Austerlitz there's a few in there. I could go on - luckily War artist may do a lot of the heavy lifting for you post 1900.

The bayeux tapestry is an odd one though not a painting - worth considering..

Geographic features - there must be more than a few biblical ones - specifically - israelites crossing the red sea stands out.83.100.254.70 21:13, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

J.M.W. Turner (1775-1851) Hannibal Crossing the Alps 1812 see http://www.humboldt.edu/~rwj1/104h/009.html some others from the same site are found Death of General Wolfe, Battle of Jersey has a painting "Death of Major Peirson".83.100.254.70 21:20, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Paolo Uccello has some good ones including a 'st george and dragon' - the dragon dies - does that count.83.100.254.70 21:25, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Don't forget the The Fighting Temeraire - it's about war (maybe doesn;t count - but worht looking at anywya).83.100.254.70 21:26, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Guernica by Pablo Picasso -- Deborahjay 22:34, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for Bayeux Tapestry - I'd forgotten that. The Death of Marat, The Fighting Temeraire and Guernica (painting) were already on my lists. The other ones are nice, but really, as I said, I'm looking for cases where we already have an article on the painting, not on the battle or war. On the other hand, maybe some of those deserve articles? The Turner painting of Hannibal Crossing the Alps is definitely a link I hope will turn blue some day. Carcharoth 22:40, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Two more candidates I didn't see on your list: Death of Cook and Saturn Devouring His Son ---Sluzzelin talk 22:59, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I used the prefixindex to look for "The Death of..." but not "Death of..." Carcharoth 23:24, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

See commons:Category:Battle paintings and commons:Category:Killing in art (Image:Fafner kills Fasolt.jpg, for instance), as well as commons:Category:Jacques-Louis_David (especially Image:Sabine women.jpg) and Image:Jean-Leon Gerome Pollice Verso.jpg. grendel|khan 01:03, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Unlike Pleven Panorama and Gettysburg Cyclorama, Roubaud's Borodino Panorama and Sevastopol Panorama don't have articles about them in Wikipedia. --Ghirla^-трёп- 19:39, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Gustav Dore did a series of drawings about the crusades with lots of battle, death, and war. Adam Bishop 01:18, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

What about the various depictions of Saint Sebastian and other martyred saints? Corvus cornix 16:31, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I searched but only found one painting of martyrdom with its own article not already included in Carcharoth's list: Caravaggio's Crucifixion of St. Peter. Would paintings of Jesus on the cross deserve inclusion? I also thought of Dalí's Soft Construction with Boiled Beans (Premonition of Civil War). ---Sluzzelin talk 20:45, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

One example of Jesus is Mantegna's The Lamentation over the Dead Christ. Two more I came up with: the corpse in Rembrandt's Anatomy Lesson of Dr. Nicolaes Tulp and Bacon's Triptych, May–June 1973, showing the moments before his lover's death. ---Sluzzelin talk 22:29, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I tended to avoid the martyrdom ones at first, but then included a smattering. I avoided all the crucifixion of Christ ones, and that would form its own, rather extensive, subset. I noticed the category of surrealist paintings, but couldn't understand what most of them were symbolising... The anatomy corpse ann the Bacon ones are interesting. The Commons categories are also interesting. I thought it would be fairly simple to group battle and death paintings, but it seems there is quite a large grey area on the boundaries. Carcharoth 00:05, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I checked my own user page and found Medusa (Leonardo da Vinci) which may probably qualify for your list. --Ghirla^-трёп- 19:51, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Humanities-Religious-Locations of SAKTI PEEDAMS IN INDIA.-How many are there ?

I understand that some parts of Goddess Parvati- the other half of LORD SHIVA ,fell in various parts of India & these places were later considered as the places consecrated by the Goddess SAKTI & known as SAKTI peedams. I want to know the exact locations of these places & how many such peedams are there in India or elsewhere.I shall be grateful for a complete answer.If possible send the answer to my Email ID <email deleted> —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vrkrishnan (talk • contribs) 20:17, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Oxford

When does the academic year begin again at Oxford University —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.36.182.217 (talk) 21:22, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

See Michaelmas.  --Lambiam 21:26, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

More precisely, specifically in 2007, the Michaelmas term at Oxford University is from Sunday, 7 October to Saturday, 1 December.[4]  --Lambiam 21:34, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Famous Piece of Clarinet Music

I would like to know a famous piece of clarinet music however the only thing I know about it is that it is frequently played in tv etc with scenes or images of new york im not sure if this helps at all.

Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.111.221.207 (talk) 21:28, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

One likely candidate is the introduction to Rhapsody in Blue, starting out with the famous solo clarinet glissando. Woody Allen's b&w movie Manhattan opens with cityscapes and this piece of music. ---Sluzzelin talk 21:33, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Thats the 1! been bugging me for ages! Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.111.221.207 (talk) 22:17, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

The trivia section indicates that the opening glissando's style was dictated by how the clarinetist played it in rehearsal, but I remember hearing somewhere that the whole glissando in fact arrives from the fact that the clarinetist did that trick before the piece was even written. It might be nice to track that down. The citation that is offered seems a bit dubious to me. Donald Hosek 00:10, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Smooth guys in the classical world...

Ok, so this is a REALLY weird question, but I would like some names of people from the classical world that were like master seductionists (or are famous for getting the ladies), either real or fictional. So far I've got Lothario, Casanova, Don Juan, Romeo, and depending on kinkyness, Marquis De Sade. Can someone spot me a couple of names? --Oskar 21:48, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Ohh, ohh, Henry VIII maybe? --Oskar 21:54, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure what Romeo is doing in this list; according to Willy the Shake, Romeo rather famously did not get the lady. Bielle 21:57, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Just in passing, I don't agree with this. Romeo both marries and beds Juliet during the course of the play, so I think he did "get the lady". AndyJones 12:28, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, yeah, but if someone's real hot, you call him a "Romeo" :) That's the kind of thing I'm looking for --Oskar 22:01, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

The 'Classical World' is normally used as a term to describe ancient Greece and Rome, a period full of mythical lovers and seducers of one kind or another. I confine myself to just two: Paris who brought Helen to Troy, an launched thereby one of the great epics of human history; and not to forget the 'randy goat' himself, the Great God Pan! But the greatest real seducer of history was not male at all; she is the incomparable Cleopatra, of whom John Keats once wrote "She makes an impression the same as the Beauty of a Leopardess...I should like her to ruin me." Cleopatra, Oskar, was famous for getting the men! Clio the Muse 23:59, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Which is why she got landed in a huge tempest underneath the Earth, according to Dante. bibliomaniac15 Two years of trouble and general madness 00:14, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

And what a tempest she was! Clio the Muse 00:19, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

For less glamorous examples, I thought of the rakes in literature, the article lists a few. For classical myth, I heard Zeus was no slouch either, though he used powers beyond seduction. ---Sluzzelin talk 00:31, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Ovid thought he was pretty hot stuff (see Ars Amatoria). For a medieval, rather than classical, example, Andronicus I Comnenus managed to bag anyone he came across, including two cousins and the prepubescent widow of the emperor he deposed. Adam Bishop 01:11, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh! Also, another medieval one, Baldwin III of Jerusalem was apparently quite the ladies man in his youth. Adam Bishop 01:21, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Ghengis Khan(see here[5]) and Ismail Ibn Sharif. --M@rēino 13:06, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Adonis. Corvus cornix 16:34, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

"Classical world"? Surely Alcibiades is the man you are looking for! --Ghirla^-трёп- 20:00, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Hitler's entrance music

I've seen some old footage of Hitler rallies and he alwys seems to enter the hall or wherever to the same piece of music. At first I thought this was a coincidence but after the third time I began to think it was a kind of presidential march, a bit like hail to the chief. Was this specially composed for him and does anyone have any idea what it is called?80.177.38.137 22:18, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not too sure if this is what your talking about Horst-Wessel-Lied. --i am the kwisatz haderach 22:28, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

No, it's not the Horst Wessel Lied; it's the Badenweiler Marsch, which is really quite good, if you can divorce it from its political associations. Clio the Muse 23:37, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

You also hear an anthem tune by Haydn frequently played in historical films about Nazi Germany. It has been used as a German and Austrian national anthem and a hymn tune. Edison 13:46, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia sociology experiment

I recently changed the color of my sig from the default blue to an annoying red. Suddenly, I'm noticed. I get a barnstar. I've got emails through Wikipedia. I've had comments about my user page - even a complaint about my use of ™. So, I'm wondering if coloring a sig really makes a lot of difference. This is sort of the same idea as the studies that have shown that you get more tickets if you drive a red car. Has anyone else experienced something like this? Anyone actually experimented with different colors to see if makes much difference what color you choose? -- kainaw™ 23:07, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I didn't even wikilink mine for a while, and got a few comments. If you don't link to your userpage, people tend to contact you via email or even hunt you down via Google. If I didn't have to use a link (as Kainaw pointed out), I wouldn't. But instead I just get to use this terrible redlink. HYENASTE 01:19, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I haven't tried anything other than plain old blue yet. Your experience doesn't surprise me in the least. In my synesthetic little world, I never associated "kainaw" with red, now I'm suddenly forced to, and it's irritating. ;-) The article on color symbolism and psychology, to be taken with a grain of salt, says red suggests passion, strength, energy, fire, love, sex, excitement, speed, heat, arrogance, ambition, leadership, masculinity, power, danger, gaudiness, blood, war, anger, revolution, radicalism, socialism, communism, aggression, summer, autumn, stop ... and stimulates our appetite! In addition, I've seen users comment negatively on any colored identifier beyond the blue unbolded monochrome, likening the choice of a colorful signature to attention seeking. I even saw one user change his short name, because other users had accused him of "trying to be special". ---Sluzzelin talk 01:15, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Mine lacks a "talk" link partially to say, "I've been here so long that I got my account when no one did that with their signatures." The subtext is, "I do not give a flying fig for your template, box, and project endeavors." This gets misunderstood as unfriendliness as often as not. Geogre 01:56, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Why are we able to insert fancy code into our signiatures if we aren't supposed to do that? The main purpose of a signiature is to make you contactable. I don't link to my userpage, because that's blank. That only redirects to my talk. And put it this way: don't most people following my signiature link do so to tell me something? That is why a signiature which doesn't link isn't much use, you have to type into the search box "user:xyz". I think making it red is partly to do with freedom of speech, though.martianlostinspace ^{email me} 16:54, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

On the first part, there might be practical reasons for some editors. Having a name that sticks out allows you to scroll faster while searching a thread to which you had posted and signed. I noticed this the first time with a user's magenta font in capital letters - it really stuck out even when scrolling at high speed. As for the talk, I added it one day, because I sometimes post gigantic pictures on my user page, and I don't want users to be forced to go through the loading. When you think about it, it is surprising, our impatience accelerating along with technology. How long is a click? Yet every additional click is a nuisance. :-) ---Sluzzelin talk 06:40, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Americans studying in Cuba.

I am an American. Can I study in Cuba for anything besides medicine? I do not want to be a doctor. I am of Cuban heritage, and I feel a great desire to return to the country of my family. I know medical students can study there, but for any other majors...? And I am a senior in High School, how would I go about with my guidance to applying there?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.172.220.165 (talk) 23:26, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

After reading numerous websites, I think that the situation is like this: American citizens are prohibited from traveling to Cuba and engaging in commercial transactions or spending money there, except for limited exceptions, such as visiting family members (for no more than 2 weeks) or conducting research. Enrolling in a Cuban university would apparently be illegal if it involved paying tuition or other fees and if you spent any money while you were there. (So, if you don't need to eat and can get a full scholarship, you may be all set.) The medical study program seems to be an exception because students receive a free education (and perhaps free room and board) from the Cuban government. The one possibility legally open to you is enrolling at a U.S. university that offers a study abroad program in Cuba. A few U.S. universities have licenses to offer such programs, which must last for at least a semester. Your guidance office may be able to help you locate U.S. universities that offer such programs. Marco polo 01:49, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Note that you asked if you can, not if you're allowed to. No USians are allowed to travel to Cuba (well, they are, but they're not allowed to spend any money there, as Marco pointed out) but plenty do. Cuban immigration doesn't stamp passports - the visa is a loose leaflet (for this exact reason). And it seems US immigration doesn't make too much of an effort to find out if you've been there. Just make sure you first travel to another country (Mexico being an obvious choice) and only book the trip to Cuba there (and ditch the ticket before (if) you re-enter the US). Whether Cuba will let you study, I don't know, but I don't see why, if you pay the tuition fees. Especially if you're a 'lost son'. :) DirkvdM 18:41, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Dirk is wrong about the US not making an effort to find out who has traveled to Cuba. This article explains that the US government does try to catch Americans who have traveled to Cuba and to harrass them. However—and this was news to me—the government apparently backs down if you contest the fine and request a hearing in court because the government is afraid that it would lose a constitutional challenge in court. That said, there is a chance that you would face a degree of surveillance and legal peril under the USA PATRIOT Act. Since Wikipedia cannot offer legal advice, I recommend that you speak with a competent lawyer before embarking on a legally risky course. Marco polo 19:38, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm a little surprised by this, Marco, because the hotels I have stayed in in Havana (the quirky Ambos Mundos is my favourite) are simply full of Americans from all walks of life! And Dirk, unless things have changed since I was last there, the Cuban authorities do stamp passports on entrance and exit; pathetic little stamps, I admit, but stamps nonetheless. Clio the Muse 01:39, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

My experiences are similar to Clio the Muse's. On each of three trips I have made to Cuba, there were many Americans on my flights out of Toronto. It was a relatively common way around the US embargo taken by students especially because, in the early days (20 years ago), Cuba was so very. very inexpensive. Evevn 5 years ago, Americans would get to Toronto (usually by bus or car from Buffalo) and then fly out of Toronto. I recall stamps in my passport and now that passports will soon have to be shown even by car and bus passengers at the US border, this approach may not work for much longer. Bielle 02:27, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Curious; my passport wasn't stamped. For the record, that was in december 2003. From the Rough Guide (2000 edition): "American citizens can travel to Cuba on tourist cards purchased in Canada, Mexico or other countries, and the Cuban authorities will on request stamp the card instead of your passport on entering and leaving Cuba." Maybe they sometimes give out separate tourist cards by default, also to non-USians, to play it safe, for those who might wish to travel to the US later on the same passport. I suppose non-USians would run into the same trouble as USians with a Cuban stamp in their passport because they will have spent money in Cuba and therefore violated the blockade.

For clarification, the reasoning behind this is that the Cubans 'stole' certain facilities when they nationalised them. And those are now part of the economy as a whole. So anything from Cuba is (likely to be) in part produced with stolen goods. So basically, when you have even the slightest financial dealings with Cuba, then you're a fence. I just realise that the same would apply to Venezuela, but also to many other countries that have done any nationalisation of companies in which US companies have invested. But then the US would have to blockade pretty much the rest of the world, effectively blockading themselves (that's an interesting thought - how would their economy fare under that?). Or is it that some compensation is generally given to shareholders or something along those lines? I vaguely recall Venezuela doing that. DirkvdM 06:24, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh, what might have made the difference with the stamping is that I didn't enter on a return ticket within the visa period, meaning that I was traveling on. DirkvdM 04:32, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Some US colleges (like Sarah Lawrence College offer study abroad programs in Havana that allow you to study in using an educational visa. The thing with the Sarah Lawrence program is that you have to be a Sarah Lawrence student in order to take part in the program. I'd ask your guidance counselor if any other schools offer similar programs. I'm actually a Sarah Lawrence alum myself and got an educational Visa to spend a week in Cuba for a labor law class trip. Elocina 23:47, 9 September 2007 (UTC)