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January 14

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Left-wing version of the Nazi salute?

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I know that the Neo-Nazis still do the Nazi salute and lots of Sieg Heiling at their marches. Do the far-left also have a specific salute/gesture for use en masse on these occasions? Just wondering. --84.71.49.29 00:52, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Roman salute, though associated mostly with the Nazis, was in wider use before the 1940s, and may even have been used by some left-wing movements, although I don't know for sure. The hand gesture most associated with left-wing movements in recent times is undoubtedly the clenched fist, which is used primarily when singing and otherwise demonstrating, and not as a routine social gesture, as the Roman salute was by the Nazis and Fascists. 01:56, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I think the clenched fist is used as a symbol of struggle... Afaik, socialists don't have an all-purpose salute. Maybe it's got something to do with the far right approach to hierarchical order and militarism, or something... 惑乱 分からん 12:16, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What would Che do? (WWCD?)
He'd probably salute in the same style that capitalists would. While humming the Internationale, perhaps. --24.147.86.187 17:29, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
See Raised fist which gained prominence during the Spanish civil war and was a salute primarily for anarchists and other leftists. The raised fist, at least in Europe, has been synonomous with letist movements ever since. It is also a widely used symbol of anti-imperialism in Africa. I don't know of any occasions when Guevara raised his fist aloft, this famous picture shows him alongside Castro who is performing a gesture in which he appears to be trying to excuse himself to go to the bathroom. [1]--Zleitzen 03:40, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There is an interesting story connected with this matter. Before he became Foreign Minister, Joachim von Ribbentrop had a fairly disastrous service as German ambassador in Great Britian. He was so notorious for diplomatic and political faux pas that he was renamed in sections of the British press as 'Von Brickendrop'. On one notorious occasion he greeted King George VI with the Roman salute and a 'Heil', a major breach of diplomatic protocol. Hitler was inclined to take Ribbentrop's side in the matter until Göring, no friend of the hapless diplomat, pointed out just how he would feel if the Russian ambassador greeted him with the clenched fist salute! Clio the Muse 00:16, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ancient Greek Traditions

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Whats the name of that ancient Greek tradition (as shown in the Odyssey) where you invite strangers into your home and shelter them, our of fear they may actually be gods in disguise gaging your actions? Unless I'm mistaken, it the first two letters of the name is 'Xa.' Anyone have any ideas?

I've never heard of such a word (though there is Baucis and Philemon), but I bet it begins with "Xen-", since Xenos was the Greek word for "foreigner/stranger/guest". AnonMoos 07:07, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know whether this is the word you're looking for, but xenodochy means something like hospitality/friendliness toward strangers. I found no mentioning of any fear-of-god motivation included in the definition though. Wiktionary has an entry on the adjective xenodochial. ---Sluzzelin 09:57, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This is a very poor percentage suggestion, but any chance it's not necessarily Greek? In Act I of Die Walkure, Hunding offers hospitality to Siegmund for the night with the stated intention of fighting him in the morning, and memory tells me it's not basic hospitality, but part of some greater rite. As the son of Wotan, Siegmund qualifies as that God, as well as being in disguise, even if he himself can't see through it. Again, poor percentage. Wolfgangus 12:27, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the bonds of hospitality were a widely-perceived requirement of decency. For the Greeks, it was Themis, the embodiment of Right Order, who presided over this. Hestia, also older than the Olympians, was goddess of the hearth. Betrayal of hospitality was impiety: it exposed the wicked to the Erinyes. "Fear" is just a small part of what held one from harming a guest. It was part of the foundation culture was built upon. --Wetman 18:07, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The word you're looking for is xenia, often translated "guest-friendship." Here's the dictionary definition of the Greek word. Wareh 22:31, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like we have the articles Xenia (Greek), Xenos (Greek). Wareh 22:42, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Violation of hospitality rules is the main reason why Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed, not homosexuality, as is often alleged. User:Zoe|(talk) 23:21, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
So would one say Xenodochy, or Xenia? The first seem more appropriate to me, for the actual "receiving of guests", the second to be used more for "hospitality" as a general concept. And yes, Zoe, it is strange that the one original source that is more readily available than any other is so seldom checked for the accuracy of deductions. --Seejyb 07:53, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"Xenodochy" is not in common use in English by anyone to refer to anything. "Xenia" is very commonly used to refer to the ancient Greek social institution of guest-friendship (the original asker's "tradition"). Wareh 15:22, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Second Punic War

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My understanding is that there were 3 main Hannibal victories in Italy

  • Battle of the Trebia
  • Battle of Lake Trasimene
  • Battle of Cannae

Counting forces on both sides during these 3 major battles, what was the total amount (rounded to nearest thousand) that were in the same boat fighting each other (Hannibal vs Roman Republic)? Where does this statistical information come from (i.e. Livy, Polybus)? Is there more than one source for this information? --Doug talk 15:11, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Looking for the total number of soldiers involved in these 3 major battles of the Second Punic War. --Doug talk 23:24, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The pages on the Battle of the Trebia, the Battle of Lake Trasimene and the Battle of Cannae all give figures for the numbers involved on each side. The main sources you need to consult are Livy's History, books 21 to 39, the World History of Polybius, and Appian's Roman History. However, I think it important to understand that the total number of people involved in these battles is based on 'best guesses'. While it would be possible to give reasonably accurate figures for Roman legions as such-assuming they were all up to strength-, Hannibal's own armies, dependant as he was on local allies and auxiliaries, were subject to wide fluctuations. Clio the Muse 23:49, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for those additional sources. I will follow up on Livy and Polybius, etc. This is then the way I see the numbers as per Wikiarticles
(assuming someone already did some of this research - probably from some of these sources perhaps):

  • Battle of the Trebia = Hannibal (31K) -- Roman Republic (45K)
  • Battle of Lake Trasimene = Hannibal (30K) -- Roman Republic (30K - using this estimate)
  • Battle of Cannae Hannibal = Hannibal (54K) -- Roman Republic (86K)
  • Hannibal total then is 115K
  • Roman Republic total then is 161K
  • Grand Total (all in the same boat) then were 276K.

Is this the way you see the numbers, using the existing Wikipedia articles for this?
Looking for a confirmation from others beside myself (even using the existing articles). --Doug talk 21:15, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Doug, your calculations are spot on, taking as a basis the lower estimates for Roman strength at the latter two battles, and rounding slightly down for Cannae (quite right too!). Clio the Muse 23:16, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for confirmation. Appreciate it. Here is what that did (and very important in my opinion - whatever that is worth). Perhaps you have been following my "Petrarch theories" (which I believe you have). So what you just confirmed was that this information came from the ancient histories recorded by Livy and Polybius. You even pointed out exactly where it can be found, which I did not know until you told me. However I did know that Petrarch studied much the ancient histories of Livy and Polybius. In fact (if I am not mistaken) Petrarch even lived in the same town as Livy and had full access to his histories through the local library. Petrarch wrote also many instances showing he knew of Polybius histories (i.e. De Viris Illustribus). Right now that's all I dare say, however you will find this number in Acts Chapter 27 verse 37 (all of the 'souls' being in the same ship). [2] I wouldn't dare say that 'souls' sounds like "soldiers" because that would be implying something presumptuous. Isn't there an expression something to the effect: "Being all in the same boat". --Doug talk 23:48, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

To follow this up further, the way I see it is that it was Petrarch that wrote Acts of the Apostles in the Fourteenth Century (1341-1374). Petrarch called it "Chronicle of Universal History".
It is still another list of 28 moral biographies (a.k.a. De Viris Illustribus) of many such biographies that Petrarch wrote. Many of the below later ones are in the time period surrounding the Second Punic War, while the earlier ones are of world leaders leading up to this time period. Notice they are in reverse chronological order. Also it turns out they all are "related" to each other in one fashion or another, going all the way down (as if sewn together with a needle and thread). All these Lives Livy wrote about. Petrarch lived the last part of his life in Padua, Italy, where Livy lived. Petrarch then found all this history information in a monastery library there where Livy left it over 1000 years earlier. Below are the names of these 28 biographies:

  • Darius III (Codomannus) was great-grandson of Darius II) (Darius II, half-brother and rival of Xerxes II) (Xerxes II, son of Artaxerxes I)
  • Stateira I, sister-wife of Darius III. Stateira II (daughter of Stateira I) married Alexander the Great.
  • Marcus Aemilius Scaurus (His second wife was Caecilia Metella; Dalmatica who was later the third wife of Lucius Cornelius Sulla)

Notice our friend Scipio "Cornelius" Africanus in chapter 10 of Acts - same person Petrarch is famous for in his grand epic poem Africa. Here is an interesting coincidence: Notice in chapter 1 is the number 40. Add this to "66" (which is a chapter of one "Cornelius" in Jerome's De Viris Illustribus [3]) and you get 106, which is the exact number on a list of Boccaccio's moral biographies On Famous Women that Petrarch influenced. There happens to be 66 books to the Bible (Old Testament of 39 + New Testament of 27). Now add 28 (number of chapters to Acts of the Apostles) and you get 134, which just happens to be the amount of Jerome's "Christian authors" above. --Doug talk 17:43, 20 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

'o clock position

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What do they mean by 10'o clock position, 2'o clock position.

Slmking 15:25, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Think about where the numbers are on an actual analog clock - they're at different angles from the center, 12 o'clock is 0 (or 360) degrees, 3 o'clock is 90 degrees, 6 o'clock is 180 degrees, etc. If something is at 3 o'clock, pretend you are standing in the middle of the clock and then point toward where the three is. You should be pointing straight to your right. Basically, pretend your arm is the hour hand of the clock. Chickenflicker---♣ 15:41, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Also in the UK (and maybe beyond) people who walk with their feet pointing 'outwards' are said to walk at "ten to two" in reference to their feet looking like they are pointing at 10 and 2 whilst walking (whereas most people walk pretty much with their feet straight forward. ny156uk 18:42, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I a born and bred UKer, and I've never heard that before regarding feet. I have heard of 'ten to two' refering to the position of hands on a steering wheel. 62.253.44.56 23:50, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Descendants of Jesus

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If at all this holds true, is it not after this 2000 years, we would have had atleast a whole city of people as descendants.... [maths calculation: one child in 0 AD gets married, has atleast 2 kids, they multiply... like that = giving atleast 100,000 + ] Slmking 15:34, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Your mathmatics is very seriously oversimplified, but it's true enough that if a person who lived 2000 years ago has any living descendants nowadays, then it's extremely probable that that person has at least tens of millions of descendants nowadays. (If you want a simplistic calculation, then assuming about 2000 years corresponds to about 65 generations, then an average of 1.3 non-intermarrying reproducing offspring over 65 generations gives 1.3^65 descendants, or 25,486,952.) AnonMoos 18:37, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. See also Desposyni... AnonMoos 18:38, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Another way of thinking of this paradox is to ask how many direct ancestors you had X years in the past. You don't have to go very far back to find that the number seems to exceed the entire world population X years ago. Of course, you have to allow for many of those people showing up simultaneously in several different branches of your family tree, but, even allowing for that, basically, it's not so long ago that all the people who have any descendants today are ancestors of huge groups of us (say, all persons with any European ancestry) today. I believe the consensus is that you can find a remarkable pool of common ancestors dated as recently as 7th-9th century A.D., though our article Most recent common ancestor suggests you have to go back to maybe the first millennium BC to cover all humans alive today. (Translating to the point of the original question, if Jesus had children, and they had children, then Jesus is probably the ancestor of all people with any European or Near Eastern ancestry.) See further: [4] [5] [6] Wareh 22:28, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It reminds me of that story about all guinea pigs (was it guinea pigs?) comming from a single couple brougth back from Israël. Keria 00:36, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That would be Hamsters, guinea pig are South American. Rmhermen 20:48, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

geography

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What is considered "latin america"?

Everything south of the border (Rio Grande). To be a bit more precise: Latin America is composed by every country colonized by the Spaniards and Portuguese. These countries usually follow Catholiscism, and speak Spanish or Portuguese. It would have been easier and quicker for you to read the article Latin America. Flamarande 16:53, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Aren't the French-speaking Caribbean islands also part of Latin America? 惑乱 分からん 22:23, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Generally, no. Neither are Suriname, French Guiana, Belize nor Guyana, nor the English or Dutch speaking islands. User:Zoe|(talk) 23:31, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
On the contrary, French speaking countries such as Haiti are considered to be "Latin American".--Zleitzen 03:12, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that's the difference between Latin America and Ibero-America.--Pharos 01:57, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
According to our article, French Guiana, being a Francophone country and French being a Romance language, is considered part of Latin America. JackofOz 00:59, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Correct. Latin American simply infers middle and South American inhabited by speakers of Latin based languages. It is also a term which provides an alternative to the the Pan-American Anglosphere, which includes the two North American nations, the British West Indies, British islands such as the Falklands including other former colonies in South America (Belize, Guyana) and the Caribbean (also Bermuda) etc. Suriname, being a former Dutch colony, is also not Latin American. However, though all French protectorates and former colonies in South America and the Caribbean are considered "Latin American", French speaking Canada is not for reasons I have not yet encountered!--Zleitzen 03:27, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Just a minor remark, but French Guiana is not a country. It's an overseas department of France. They do have a regional president, but they used the Euro currency and have to representatives in the French National Assembly.Evilbu 00:45, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
How true. That means that French Guiana is an integral part of France; no different from Hawaii being part of the USA. That means that, at least in respect of French Guiana, France is also a Latin American country. JackofOz 00:59, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Not to mention that Spain is a partially African country. JackofOz 23:32, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Innovations & Inventions

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Is there presently a "Wiki project" where the concepts of entering in practical ideas for everyday problems is located?

  • Innovations Wanted to everyday problems (i.e. How to save money in purchasing products)
  • Inventions Wanted to everyday problems (i.e. How to make a certain type work task easier)
  • Possible Innovation Solution to everyday problems (i.e. practical concept solution others have found out that has not been widely disseminated yet)
  • Possible Inventive Solutions to everyday problems (i.e. practical device solutions that a person uses personally that is not widely disseminated yet)
These all sound like original research and not really within the scope of an encyclopedia. If you mean a project somewhere else other than Wikipedia, probably not. --24.147.86.187 22:37, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Wiki-How. --Seejyb 07:59, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! --Doug talk 19:27, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Meaning my name

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Hi

I would like to know the meaning of the following name: Arren. (Indian orgins) I would appreciate it if you could help. My e-mail address is <email removed>

Thank you Vee

Now, if your origins were Scottish, Arren would be a variation of Arran meaning island dweller according to Baby Names. Not an answer to your question, but I thought you might find it interesting all the same. Then of course there also was the Jedi master Kae Arren ... ---Sluzzelin 10:39, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

two reference questions on psychology- in the works of freud, jung (with ref to nietzsche)

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i am looking for a reference for two specific sections in some books i read a couple of years ago.

the first is in the works of Sigmund Freud, probably somewhere in 'The Interpretation of Dreams':

Freud talks about a book he read as a child, which was split into three (i think) volumes, however the last 2 volumes of the series were lost and he was never able to remember the author's name or book title, he may have mentioned that it was the first book he read, but im not sure. the book was a dramatic novel of some sort about a woman who went mad or suffered from hysteria, i'm not sure. if anyone has read 'interpretation of dreams' recently and knows the section i'm talking about i'd love to hear which part of the book it is.

the second reference is in the works of Carl Jung, i have most of the available paperback editions of the collected works, there is a couple of paragraphs in one of them where Jung speaks of the philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche, and his work Thus Spake Zarathustra. Jung states that several paragraphs in Thus Spake Zarathustra were taken almost verbatim from a story that Nietzsche and his sister had read together as children, (something about a weather forecast, or a shipping forecast?) probably unconsciously, not as an intentional plagiarism.

anyway if anyone knows the sections im speaking of or has read through them recently i'd be thankful if you could let me know.

best regards, dave.

You might find the answer to your second question in Paul Bishop, "The Descent of Zarathustra and the Rabbits: Jung’s Correspondence with Elisabeth Förster-Nietzsche", Harvest: Journal for Jungian Studies, 43 (1997), 108-123, or his earlier monograph The Dionysian Self: C.G. Jung’s Reception of Friedrich Nietzsche. Wareh 22:37, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You've obviously forgotten cryptomnesia. The Jung story is in Man and His Symbols (p.24 Laurel edition, p.37 Doubleday). I can't find the exact Freud reference but he mentions the influence Börne had on him in A Note on the Prehistory of the Technique of Analysis[7] and in The Interpretation of Dreams he talks of ripping up a book about Persia with his sister (chapter 5). meltBanana 01:28, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Green Mountain Boys

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Is there a "roster" of the Vermont men who served with the "Green Mountain Boys"? Thank You for any assistance. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 2daniels (talk • contribs) 19:06, 14 January 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Our article on the Green Mountain Boys provides a link to this site, but I make no claims as to its accuracy. Carom 19:09, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Christan Palestinians

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I know that there is a sizable number of Palestinian Christens but have many of them been known to take an active part in any of the Palestinian militant groups? Ken 19:39, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've heard of Greek Orthodox Palestinians protesting against Israel, especially in the West Bank, but I've never heard of them taking part in militant groups. Also, I wouldn't call the number sizable (anymore). The BBC says only four percent of people in the Palestinian territories are Christian. Picaroon 19:52, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
According to the CIA, 8% of the current population of the West Bank are "Christian and other" (i.e. not Muslims or Jews). That translates to around 10% of the non-Jewish population. Wareh 02:01, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Greek Orthodox Palestinians? I thought the Christian Palestinians were Maronites. User:Zoe|(talk) 23:33, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I believe that most Maronite Christians live in Lebanon. In any case, unlike when it was under Muslim control, the Old City of Jerusalem, as well as the birthplace of Jesus at Beit Lechem (Bethlehem - a bit south of Jerusalam in the West Bank) is now open for pilgrimages and for places of worship for all three monotheistic religions. Loomis 00:48, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Greek Orthodox Palestinians. See Greek Orthodox Church of Jerusalem. Picaroon 02:13, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have met people who claim to be Palestinian Christian. They were ideologically opposed to Israel, and told me that, while they didn't endorse violence, understood the terrorist (my word) stance. It isn't a conflict solely on religious lines, some Islamic peoples are Israeli. DDB 02:07, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • I have a group of Palestinian Christian friends. About half of them are Catholic and the other half Orthodox. They've all bugged out of Nablus, Jerusalem, and their other hometowns so as not to have to deal with the idiocies on both sides of the conflict there. My #1 protege's 85-year-old Mom just came over a month ago. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 16:16, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Also see Palestinian Lutherans at [8]. Edison 19:08, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In past decades Palestinian Christians played a central role in several militant groups, most notably the largely Christian Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. In part this was because the Christian minority was wealthier and better educated, mainly due to favouritism from European colonials, and had a larger role in Palestinian society in general. Some prominent Palestinian Christians involved in militant groups include George Habash, Nayef Hawatmeh, Wadie Haddad, and Victor Batarseh. In the last couple decades Islamism has become increasingly prominent, and Christians have become somewhat marginalized in the movements. - SimonP 01:21, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo

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What was to be the status of the land grants in New Mexico? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.89.244.94 (talk) 20:42, 14 January 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Read the article Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo to discover "the version of the treaty ratified by the United States Senate eliminated Article 10, which stated that the U.S. government would honor and guarantee all land grants awarded in lands ceded to the United States to citizens of Spain and Mexico by those respective governments." The Reference Desk is designed to answerr questions not otherwise answereed in Wikipedia articles.--Wetman 22:23, 14 January 2007 (UTC)--Wetman 22:23, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Granted that what you state is correct, but you must concede that quite a variety of questions and speculations land here, nonetheless, so we should cover that territory, as well. StuRat 03:37, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Creation of a Wiki

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I had attempted to create a wikipage. And it was almost immediately deleted. I understand that there are policies in effect to prevent useless pages, however as a new user I am unfamiliar to do everything at once.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Bib2k5 (talk • contribs)

What was your article about? See Wikipedia:Notability and Reasons for deletion for more information. Help:Starting a new page is also useful for new users. --The Dark Side 23:32, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The moderators do a magnificent job. It is hard for them to keep up with all that people want to put up .. and some people have some bizarre agenda for the online encyclopedia. When the current US President was first elected, some spammers 'google bombed' failure into his search engine, thinking it funny. Others spammed quote engines with everything he said, misquoting to highlight faux pas. Wiki doesn't need that. However, I can relate to your issue. I started one on my uncle, who is a significant businessman in Australia, but before I brought detail to the page, it was deleted. My tip is to create a detailed page in text, first, including links and references, then create it on Wiki. DDB 02:01, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at your contributions, it doesn't look like any wikipage was ever created under the name Bib2k5. Perhaps you used another name, weren't logged in, or forgot to hit the SAVE button ? StuRat 03:28, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Lives / De Viris Illustribus

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Is there a list of Lives done by a famous person or ancient historian (i.e. Livy) that is of the Achaemenid Dynasty or ancient Persian Empires? List of Lives of people that include the ancient world rulers like Darius the Great and Cyrus the Great. --Doug talk 23:37, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Herodotus' History sprimgs to mind. DDB 12:35, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'd agree with Herodotus, though his "concatenation" style (as opposed to "Life of...") isn't really what you seem to be looking for. You can probably find Plutarch's works online. I'm no expert, but I think he wrote a life of Artaxerxes II of Persia which seems to fit your "Persian Empire" requirement. There may also be other Persians he wrote about and in distinction to Herodotus, whose works he seems to have found intellectually unsatisfying. --Dweller 15:23, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I do not believe that the ancient Persian emperors were ever given the kind of literary treatment accorded to the later Roman variety by the likes of Suetonius. But in addition to Heroditus you might also wish to consult the surviving fragments of History of the Persians by Ctesias of Cnidus, the one time doctor to Artaxerxes II, preserved in the later work of Diodorus of Sicily. Clio the Muse 01:47, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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