Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2007 August 7

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August 7

"The Super Bowl"

Hi, I am looking for a (free) recording of a song called "The Super Bowl". It was written by Tom Hedden, and it was on the album Autumn Thunder. Any help? Music theory 01:00, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

If it was written since 1923 (if you live in the US), you're not likely to find a free copy unless the artist has made one available for free himself. Try checking his website. The Jade Knight 03:21, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Some Copyrights

I'm looking to scan and upload these and wanted to ask about the copyrights here.

The works:

• "HOLLAND A Short Survey" by "THE NETHERLANDS INFORMATION SERVICE", no copyright notice, registed with the Foreign Agents Registration Section, appears to have been published in 1960 — PD-no-notice?
• "OLD TIMES IN THE COLONIES" by "Charles Carleton Coffin", copyrighted 1922 — PD-US?
• "LINCOLN'S OWN YARNS AND STORIES" (edited) by "Col. A. K. McClure", no copyright notice, but the dude died in 1909 — PD-old-70?
• "ROMA PARTE 2A" with absolutely no marks of author or editor-ship; Looks like it was published during Mussolini's tenure — No idea if this is PD or what.
• "COLONIAL AMERICA" by "Margaret Fisher" and "Mary Jane Fowler" and published by "THE FIDELER COMPANY". No copyright notice or date, but a page of "acknowledgments for permission[s] to use [various pictures on various pages]". — PD-no-notice?
• The "Wide Awake Pleasure Book" with no author, but a very faint handwritten note in the front of the book that dates it 1879 — PD-old?
• "Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress" by "Henry Altemus", "Entered, According to Act of Congress, in the Year 1890" — PD-US (or PD-old?)

I've followed each with what I think would be the correct tag, but am not confident enough on some of them and would like advice on the rest. I certainly don't want to scan an ENTIRE book and then find out that WMF can't take it. Thanx. 68.39.174.238 03:26, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Here are some links you may find useful: 1) General criteria; 2) How Can I Tell Whether a Book Can Go Online?; 3) How Can I Tell Whether a Copyright Was Renewed?. 152.16.188.107 04:10, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Surely Henry Altemus is a publisher rather than a writer? For Pilgrim's Progress, use {{PD-old}}. Xn4 04:40, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure Altemus was the dude who wrote the introduction and may have done some editing. Anyway, the fact that it was published in the US before 1909 makes it pretty easy. Anyway, this leads to a second question 68.39.174.238 14:33, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Which is worth it?

As mentioned above, I've got a illustrated version of Bunyan's "Pilgrim's Progress". Now, I know that we've already got the text of it scanned it, but I haven't seen any illustrations. Should I just scan those and leave the text out of it? 68.39.174.238 14:33, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you are proposing to do with the illustrations, but these are normally regarded as quite incidental to the text, not to say irrelevant, and are rarely taken from one format of a book to another.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 15:56, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Not necessarily! The woodcuts are fascinating, and the early ones are valuable as well as interesting. Inevitably, they tell us a great deal about the audience of the day, and frequently they are executed by fairly significant artists. "It depends" is always the answer, but "it couldn't hoit" is another. Geogre 16:32, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Illustrations by Frederick Barnard. Anyway, my point is that The Pilgrim's Progress has already been scanned and OCR'd and is on both Gutenberg and Wikisource, so having yet another scan of it probably would be near useless. It would be like scanning in yet another copy of the Gettysburg Address or Constitution. The illustrations are the only thing that aren't out there yet. 68.39.174.238 21:00, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

The illustrator seems to be the English artist Frederick Barnard (1846-1896), best known for his illustrations of Dickens. If so, he has been dead for more than one hundred years and you can upload his work to Wikipedia with the tag {{PD-art}}, which gives the Public Domain template below. Xn4 00:36, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Oops, I should have said which gives the template PD-art, see it here. By actually adding the template, I put this page into the category Public domain art! Xn4 17:42, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Relationship?

I've been expanding the article André Kertész (Still a work in progress - see the talk page) and noticed the article Imre Kertész. Andre had a brother called Imre Kertesz, and I was wondering if there was any relation between the two people? The Imre documented here seems to have been born a lot later, so could this be an offspring of relative? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Also, does anyone have access to any pictures of Andre Kertesz? The article has no pictures and as I expand it, it looks rather bare. In addition to this, am I allowed to place any of his works on the article? Some are old enough, but are they still copyrighted? Cheers, Spawn Man 05:11, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Very little is available online about the childhood of Imre Kertész, but he has written an autobiography entitled K. dosszié ("The K file"), which has been published in German as Dossier K., but, it seems, not yet in English. The name Kertész was fairly common in Hungary before World War II, and Imre is very common, so a documentable relationship is a priori not very likely.  --Lambiam 08:12, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Kertész means gardener, by the way, and is indeed quite widespread, both in and outside of Hungary (an estimated 1210 people named Kertész live in Germany, e.g. [1]). One of the most celebrated films in Hollywood history was made by one Manó/Mihály Kertész. Other famous Hungarians named Kertész include writer Ákos Kertész (three years younger than Imre, but not his brother), conductor István Kertész (born in the same year as Imre), and scientist Kálmán Kertész. ---Sluzzelin talk 00:27, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

You're probably right - it just seemed a big coincidence having both names match. Cheers, Spawn Man 04:32, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

White Countess

I saw a DVD recently of The White Countess and was wondering how typical this was of the life of Russian emigre women at the time? Any ideas? Some more background on White Russian exiles in China would also be a help. Fred said right 07:46, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

For another cinematic viewpoint, try Ninotchka -- AnonMoos 14:11, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Ninotchka-that's the name of my brother's yacht! Clio the Muse 02:14, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Shanghai, the setting of The White Countess, was one of the great strongholds of the Russian exile community between the wars. By 1937 it is estimated that there were as many as 25,000 anti-Bolshevik Russians living in the city, the largest European group by far. Most of them had come from the Russian Far East, where, with the support of the Japanese, the Whites had maintained a presence as late as the autumn of 1922. Barred by both distance and money from joining established communities in Paris and Berlin, a large number gravitated towards Shanghai, a freeport at the time, requiring no visa or work-permit for entry. For this same reason it was later to become a refuge for Jews fleeing the Nazis.

Although free, and relatively secure, conditions for the émigrés were far from ideal. For one thing they were all stateless, as the Soviet government had revoked the citizenship of all political exiles in 1921. The only travel document most of them had was the Nansen passport, issued by the League of Nations. Unlike other foreigners in China they did not have the benefits conferred by 'extraterritoriality', which granted immunity from local laws, complex and almost impossible to understand. For another, most of the refugees were effectively penniless. This was made worse by the barriers to employment opportunities, which in this international city required a good command of English as a minimum requirement. Like The White Countess there were, indeed, whole families that depended on wives or daughters who made a living as 'taxi' or hired dancing partners. A League of Nations inqury in 1935 also found that 22% of Russian women aged between sixteen and forty-five in the city were involved in prostitution. Others, both men and women, turned to crime. In 1929 the British-run police force estimated that as much as 85% of the foreign criminals in Shanghai were Russian.

Some did manage to make a go of things, teaching music or French. Other women took work as dress-makers, shop assistants and hairdressers. By slow degrees, and despite the many difficulties, the community did begin to flourish, both economically and culturally. By the mid 1930s there were two Russian schools, as well as a variety of cultural and sporting clubs. There were Russian-language newspapers and a radio station. An important part was also played by the local Russian Orthodox Church. Many exiles set up restaurants in the district known as Little Russia, and Russian musicians achieved a dominance over the city's foreign-run orchestra. Russian teachers offered lessons in theatre and dancing. Margot Fonteyn, the English ballerina, studied dance in Shanghai as a child with Russian masters, one of whom, George Gontcharov, had formely danced with the Bolshoi in Moscow.

But it was the contribution that Russian women made to the entertainment industry, dancing and otherwise, that gave the city its exotic reputation, noted in the guidebooks of the day. Many sought a way out through connections with foreigners, either as marriage partnerrs or as mistresses. Those who were left became the focus of ernest campaigns by the League of Nations and others to end the 'white slave trade.'

The community survived through the difficult days of the Japanese occupation, but left in the end with the advance of the Communists. They were, men and women both, among history's most tenacious survivors. Clio the Muse 02:14, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Tremendous! My compliments, Clio. This is far more than I ever expected. Fred said right 10:51, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Religion

What is AOR? - Pharrar 09:44, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

In the context of religion, probably "any other religion". It usually means adult-oriented rock. Neil ╦ 14:06, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

We need more context, but have you looked at AOR?--Shantavira|^{feed me} 15:59, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

On the radio side, it used to mean "ALBUM oriented rock" and was a popular format of FM radio, when that was new. In fact, it was "not Top 40" in the US. However, radio folks used to joke that it referred instead to "All Over the Road." When disco was about, a man named Lee Abrams (now the music director at XM Satellite Radio in the US) codified AOR. He thereby "saved" a number of stations. It then developed more and became the "mix" format so popular these days. Geogre 18:03, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

In Eindhoven it means Algemene OntmoetingsRuimte (general assembly/meeting space), a student hangout where I hung out (and about and over railings and what have you) quite a lot for several years. Alas, I read in the Dutch Wikipedia article that it closed in 2005. When I frequented it, it was the second biggest client of the beer brand Dommelsch. I should have never left. :) DirkvdM 19:18, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Since the title of your question is "Religion", A.O.R. could also refer to Antiquus Ordo Rosicrucianis. ---Sluzzelin talk 19:43, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok, that looks more obscure than obscurantist, perhaps I further embarassed myself by creating a redirect for the Latin lemma. I don't know much about "secret societies" and haven't the guts to assess notability. ---Sluzzelin talk 20:42, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's a secret, innit? Rosicrucianism should really be sufficient unto itself. There are legion little "neo-" groups and legion "the authentic originals" going about, but, since there probably never was an original, this, to me, has always smacked of "Original Famous Ray's Pizza," in New York (there are eight original Ray's, with multiples in some boroughs). I cannot believe that any neo-origino-mystico-theologico-historico-group can demonstrate sufficient independent note to be discussed separately. Geogre 21:11, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Transitoriness

Help! I need some good quotations on thisPrincess of the night 10:05, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

The funeral rites of some religions include some great quotes on this topic. But they're blinking depressing. --Dweller 11:06, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

“ Man that is born of woman hath but a short time to live, and is full of misery. He cometh up and is cut down like a flower; he fleeth as it were a shadow, and never continueth in one stay. ”

I just can't find that depressing, Dweller, it's so beautiful. Xn4 18:30, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm... "fleeth"'s a word I ought to use more often. OK. I'm fleething to bed. --Dweller 23:17, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Deor, The Seafarer, The Wanderer, Hrothgar's speech/exhortation in Beowulf, Chaucer's The Legend of Good Women, Shakespeare has gobs and gobs and gobs (incl. Jacques's lovely version of "All the world's a stage"), John Bunyan has a bit, Milton's "When I consider how my light is spent," a good bit in Tennyson.... Oh, and you can go to www.bartleby.com and use Bartlett's Familiar Quotations. Bon mots aren't really our deal at this desk. Geogre 11:26, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Carpe diem! "Denn alles Fleisch es ist wie Gras, und alle Herrlichkeit des Menschen wie des Grases Blumen." (Brahms' German Requiem)--Wetman 11:32, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Et in Arcadia ego! Adam Bishop 15:11, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Ozymandias by Peebee Shelley, obviously. Also the whole of The Waste Land, and the Mutability Cantos, if you can be bothered. 64.236.80.62

And All Things Must Pass by the Quiet One. 64.236.80.62

Oliver Goldsmith, in The Deserted Village, and Thomas Gray in Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard (as long as we're being Romanticesque). I haven't checked the ubi sunt ("where are they now?") article, but, if it's any good, it'll link to a ton of others. Geogre 16:36, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I can give you some of my personal favourites;

And, like the baseless fabric of this vision,

The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces,

The solemn temples, the great globe itself,

Yes, all which it inherit, shall dissolve,

And, like this insubstantial pageant faded,

Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff

As dreams are made on, and our little life

is rounded with a sleep.

Shakespeare, The Tempest.

Our little systems have their day;

They have their day, and cease to be.

Tennyson, In Memorium.

What's not devoured by Time's devouring hand?

Where's Troy, and where's the Maypole in the Strand?

J. Bramston Art of Politics.

But as I am, in my less ruthless moods, soulful and romantic, this is the one that makes me saddest of all;

Like the dew on the mountain,

Like the foam on the river,

Like the bubble on the fountain

Thou are gone, and for ever.

Scott, The Lady of the Lake. Clio the Muse 00:28, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

this is just what I need cool Clio. You rock. Princess of the night 11:52, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and the whole of Ecclesiastes, if you want to be Biblical. Clearly the best book in the bible, mocking the views espoused by earlier other books. Skittle 14:56, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Dear Princess: I know this is not what you asked for, but I can not help countering with my favorite poet: "I know I am deathless, / I know this orbit of mine cannot be swept by a carpenter's compass, / I know I shall not pass like a child's carlacue cut with a burnt stick at night....My foothold in tenoned and mortised in granite, / I laugh at what you call dissolution, / And I know the amplitude of time." (Walt Whitman, Song of Myself) --Eriastrum 22:16, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Does this count?

Fear no more the heat o' the sun,

Nor the furious winter's rages;

Thou thy worldly task hast done,

Home art gone, and ta'en thy wages:

Golden lads and girls all must,

As chimney-sweepers, come to dust.

~ from Cymbeline by Shakespeare

S.dedalus 06:25, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

How about Shakespeare's sonnet 73? "That time of year thou mayst in me behold / When yellow leaves, or none, or few, do hang / Upon those boughs which shake against the cold, / Bare ruin'd choirs, where late the sweet birds sang....In me thou see'st the glowing of such fire / That on the ashes of his youth doth lie,...To love that well which thou must leave ere long."--Eriastrum 19:34, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

If you're a Tolkien fan, you could use They have passed like rain on the mountain, like a wind in the meadow,The days have gone down in the West behind the hills into shadow. Or you could go with Break, break, break by Alfred Lord Tennyson, that's sort of on the theme. John Donne surely has much on the topic. Oh, and I can't believe nobody's mentioned To his coy mistress yet (or if they have, I missed it). "But at my back I alwaies hear/Times winged Charriot hurrying near;/And yonder all before us lye/Desarts of vast Eternity." etc. And "To the virgins, to make much of time" here is on that very subject too. Skittle 21:59, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Re: Mudambe Iyengars

Can any one throw light on how and when the Mudambes moved from Kanchipuram to Mysore district?

Future figures in past eras

What are some works of fiction in which future figures travel to past eras and settle in that time period, using their futuristic knowledge to assume control, influence the evolution of humanity, and such? It'd likely be science fiction, but I can't think of any good examples to get me started. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 16:50, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

You might consider A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, by Mark Twain, or the 1632 series by Eric Flint. The Guns of the South by Harry Turtledove may better fit the notion of going to the past to explicitly assume control. You might also want to check time travel in fiction. — Lomn 17:43, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

See also Lest Darkness Fall by L. Sprague de Camp.  --Lambiam 17:51, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

It may be of no interest, but The Sleeper Awakes stands this scenario on its head, without the need for time travel. Xn4 18:24, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you all for the suggestions! If there are any other suggestions, they are welcome as well. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 19:47, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

The "future was yesterday" theme of both A Canticle for Leibowitz and, I suppose, the Foundation Series, are functionally like time travel, in that information is presented out of historical context of knowledge. There is a legend in the apocryphal Book of Enoch about rebel angels that Robertson Davies worked into his The Rebel Angels, and I would imagine that someone has worked with that Promethean idea (these are angels who did not fall, but who taught humans). Geogre 21:16, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

As I recall, Timeline (novel) by Michael Crichton had such a character, although he was not the chief subject of the story. 71.112.32.249 09:09, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

You might be interested in the story of John Titor, who claimed to be an actual time-traveller from the future. I'm sure there are other examples of this but this is the only one I know about.

Pyschological and Sociological Impact of Mass Media

Hi, first time poster. What was the impact of modern mass media on Western society from a historical perspective? I know that this is very broad, but I will narrow my question as I learn more. I will propose, but not limit this question to Post-industrial society as this had a major effect on availablitly of media messages in the general populations. The creation of the Propaganda industry (Public relations) and its uses may also be a central theme. ThanksKYCox 20:02, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

This sounds very much like a homework worded question. Nethertheless you may want to visit the articles on media, television, internet, and look for links regarding the cultural impacts these major media developments have had. The obvious impacts could be...Increased awareness of international happenings, reduced size of the world 'socially', different cultures merging/dieing out, dominance of US media across the globe from hollywood's take on the world to international news dominated and/or owned by american business. These are things from the top of my head, i'm sure there are much more important and interesting impacts. ny156uk 21:46, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Another possible impact would be the rise of subcultures, which is more specific than just "different cultures dying out." This appears to have started in America around the 1950s, although I'm basing that on research that focused on that time, so I haven't checked enough about earlier periods for comparison. My understanding is that rock music, the burgeoning economy, and the mass media were important influences. There would be important modern test cases in more traditional societies that get exposed to these developments, so you might be able to follow that one up, eg. by studying the youth in India. 203.221.126.73 15:44, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Britain and the war between Poland and Russia

I am trying to remember the name of a ship (the Roger, I think) that was involved in an incident in the war between Russia and Poland in the early 1920s. Does anyone have any idea what I am on about? Stockmann 20:58, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Could it be the S.S. Jolly George? She was to be loaded with arms for Poland in the Port of London, but the dockers refused (initially at least) to work on her. Part of the "Hands off Russia" campaign in which George Lansbury played no small part. Angus McLellan (Talk) 22:52, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Lucky you, I just have a copy of White Eagle, Red Star next to me :) It is indeed, as Angus wrote, S.S. Jolly George. The work stopped on 9 May. Davies describes the 'hands off' Soviet propaganda on pages 178-182 of Polish edition; let me know if you need more detail (see also Polish-Soviet War, a FA). PS. For more information on Britain and the PSW war, see for example: Lloyd George and Poland, 1919-20 (a paper by Davies).-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  23:02, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Here, my friends, is the additional detail!

After the Russian Revolution the British government under Prime Minister Lloyd George made some efforts to undermine the new Bolshevik regime, both by direct intervention and by supporting the White Army and other counter-revolutionary forces. Domestic opposition to this policy was to be found in sections of the labour movement, where militants set up Councils of Action, pledged to defend their fellow 'socialists' in Russia. Intervention by British armed forces was largely at an end by 1920, though by this time the Polish-Soviet War had broken out. With the Polish army advancing deep into the Ukraine Lloyd George decided to send military equipment to aid the offensive. In May 1920 the Jolly George, berthed in London, was being loaded with munitions bound for Poland. When the nature of the cargo was discovered by the dockers they refused to continue loading the vessel. The action was supported by The Daily Herald, a left-wing newspaper, which went on to publish the name of every ship bound for Poland. Faced with the threat of widespread strike action the government agreed to send no more munitions while the Poles were winning. This changed in July, after the Russians forced the Poles on to the defensive. The French were keen for intervention, as was Winston Churchill, the most militant anti-Communist in the cabinet. But opposition was even more widspread, from the Councils of Action all the way up to the Trades Union Congress. Once again Lloyd George backed down. In the end the Poles halted the Russian advance without the aid of the British. Clio the Muse 23:24, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

A note and a corrections 1) Lloyd George was a supporter of the Russian Empire; hence hostile to Bolsheviks - but later he became a supporter of the Soviets, seeing a 'big Russia', in whatever form, a needed party in the European 'balance of power'. 2) Polish-Soviet War has in fact broken as early as February 1919.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  23:43, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your correction. My meaning was that the Russo-Polish war was underway by the time of the end of direct British intervention in Russia in 1920, not that it started at this time. I am very well aware that it began in 1919, though I apologise for any ambiguity. And a correction, if I may, to your note. Lloyd George was not a 'supporter' of the Russian Empire as such, if by this you mean the Tsarist Empire. He was hostile to the Bolsheviks because they withdrew Russia from the war, though prior to this he had extended his support to the Provisional Government of Prince Lvov and Alexander Kerensky. Clio the Muse 00:05, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

One office / One person

A most basic social/political science question: Where did the tradition of one officeholder (one person) per office originate? It seems to be a rule that is rarely stated but almost universally observed. So far, I've only found two instances of organizations where two persons were allowed to serve in the same position at once: a high school swim team - and Vanderbilt University!! Any key words that might aid additional research would be appreciated also.209.20.241.34 21:19, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

No, not always universally observed. If you are looking at this subject from an historical perspective you would have to consider diarchy. In ecclesiastical history there was also the abuse of pluralism, whereby a single individual could hold more than one benefice at the same time. Clio the Muse 22:45, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

An obvious answer is that if there is one person is responsible for a task, decisions are taken faster and if things go wrong it is easier to point at one guilty person. A disadvantage, though, is that that person might start thinking that since they are in that position they are supposed to know best and don't need to listen to others. DirkvdM 06:07, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

If you have not yet looked into the Triumvirates of the late Roman Republic, and related stuff on the Roman consuls, I think this would give a great deal of insight into both how a system functions when more than one person holds the same office and why the system might have become unworkable. (Although as recently as 1787, the framers of the United States Constitution had a lengthy debate over whether or not the powers of the chief executive should be held by one person or several...though of course the vote came down in favor of one executive. I cannot now recall who advocated more than one--John Blair, or Edmund Randolph, perhaps?--but I remember reading of it in Madison's notes. I am sure there are other more recent examples where countries considered this possibility, and perhaps one who put it into action.) 71.112.32.249 09:16, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Btw I once experienced a system where no-one was in charge and it worked wonderfully well. That was at a Rainbow Gathering. Whenever something needed to be done, someone would always step forward to do the job. Even work on the shitpits was done this way and actually got done (to some extent anyway). But that was an idealistic gathering where there were always enough people who would 'sacrifice' themselves for the greater cause.

Of course, another example of such a system is Wikipedia. :) DirkvdM 19:04, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Epicurus' teachings

Does anyone have citations that Epicurus believed the purpose of philosophy and life was the attainment of a peaceful happy life. Seeing as the article provides no citations. I really just need someone who knows of a book where its written, preferably as close to the horses mouth as possible. If possible providing a link to the known passage on Google Books. I really just have no idea of where to start looking for this, as all I know from him is what's on this encyclopaedia, but I'm writing an essay, where, unfortunately, due to the open nature of wikipedia, using it as a source is frowned upon. Thanks in advance ΦΙΛ Κ 21:24, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Here, from the top of my head (yes, it is!), is a fragment from his letter to Menoeceus:

We must also reflect that of desires some are natural, others are groundless; and that of the natural some are necessary as well as natural, and some natural only. And of the necessary desires some are necessary if we are to be happy, some if the body is to be rid of uneasiness, some if we are even to live. He who has a clear and certain understanding of these things will direct every preference and aversion toward securing health of body and tranquillity of mind, seeing that this is the sum and end of a blessed life.

You will find this, phil, in The Essential Epicurus: Letters, Principal Doctrines, Vatican Sayings and Fragments, trans. by E. M O'Connor. Clio the Muse 22:34, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Really sorry Clio, but you wouldn't happen to have a copy of it at hand would you, as Google books doesn't have it, and neither does my library, so could you possible give a page reference? Thanks so much. ΦΙΛ Κ 10:45, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Alas, Phil, my copy lies in Cambridge, some distance hence! I can give you the reference next month, if you are prepared to wait that long. Otherwise you should be able to obtain a copy of the book through inter-library loan. It's also available on Amazon.co.uk. (I've just checked!) Clio the Muse 00:37, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I'll find a way I'm sure, the start of my term is the deadline, so I can wait, but it will be tight. Thanks very much for your help, but if you could possibly give me a note when you do get back, we can see if its any good. Thanks Again. ΦΙΛ Κ 20:22, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I certainly shall. If possible I'll try to get a hold of a copy over the next week or so. If I do I will put a note on your talk page. Clio the Muse 23:16, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok, thanks very much Clio. ΦΙΛ Κ 20:18, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Legal status of paintings lost during WWII

Raphael's Portrait of a Young Man was looted by the Germans from the Czartoryski Museum in 1939. Its current whereabouts are unknown.

Today I found something that puzzled me. This page (in Polish, sorry; English version has just the name) shows a colored version of a painting by famous 19th century Polish painter, Jan Matejko, lost in WWII. The painting used to belong to the National Museum in Warsaw. It notes that the painting was "revealed by its current owner, who allowed it to be on display for a year". Does this means that there is some statue of limitations that has expired and people who obtained the goods looted during the WWII can now safely state they own them and will be under no obligation (other then moral) to return them to the museums or original private owners they were looted from?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  22:49, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I imagine this depends on the jurisdiction you are currently in. --24.147.86.187 00:53, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Quite recently the U.S. District Court in Washington, D.C. ruled that the heirs of Malevich can sue the city of Amsterdam to recover some of his art that somehow came into the possession of the Stedelijk Museum after WW II.[2] This may not be immediately relevant to the original question because it is unclear that the works in question were acquired bona fide. It shows, however, that the notion of which jurisdiction may apply is not at all obvious: a U.S. Court decides that a Dutch administrative body can be sued in relation to art by a Russian painter, a subject of the Soviet Union, left by him in Germany, from where they were brought to the Netherlands.  --Lambiam 01:41, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, not obvious, but that's still a US ruling (which only applies in the US). Whether or not the Dutch decide to honor it is a different issue. --24.147.86.187 01:52, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I've been under the impression that the US courts often consider their jurisdiction global... :) -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  11:25, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Some of these cases hinge on the legal principle of laches. One recent one (I'm sorry, I can't remember who or what painting, but it was a US court) concerned a painting stolen from someone in the Low Countries during WW2 which was later sold and re-sold in New York several times (New York is one of the centres of the world art market, so many transactions occur there and thus the matter falls within US jurisdiction). The court heard that the painting had been listed in several sale catalogs over the years and was in a number of noted indices of paintings. The original owners (from whom the painting was stolen) didn't have any original documentation, hadn't filed (or couldn't show they had filed) the requisite report of theft after the war, and hadn't continued to search for the painting in the decades since. If they had (if they'd written regularly to auction houses, major museums, law enforcement agencies, and specialist dealers) then laches might not have applied. But the court felt that they'd not done nearly enough to continue to assert their rights over the painting, and so had lost them. There's a reasonable moral basis for this too - the final owners (while in possession of stolen property) had behaved well (they'd not bought the painting off a dodgy bloke at a car boot sale), had been open and public about their dealings, and had been duly dilligent about searching to make sure the painting they were buying was legal. 40 years had passed since the painting surfaced in the legal market, with several (good faith) owners in the mean time: it wasn't reasonable (the court held) that the first post-war owner be required to show documentation for a sale that occured so long ago, and so long after they divested themselves of the painting. -- Hydrogenated 11:48, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Additionally (for stuff that was in private hands before the war) courts have to worry about how the disputed painting came to leave the hands of the original owner. Undoubtedly the nazis looted private collections (particularly, but certainly not exclusively, those of wealthy jews), or acquired stuff at knock-down prices with the seller under duress. But there undoubtedly also are cases where desperate collectors disposed of their art to buy necessities during harsh wartime conditions. The latter acquisition is, in most circumstances, legal. Say, in this case, the buyer was a weathy german collector. If the sale is challenged later (with the decendants of the original owner saying the painting was stolen not sold) the german collector's or his heirs would be asked to show evidence of the sale (to support their claim that the painting was sold legally); 10 or 20 years later that's a reasonable request - but 50 years later (with the collector and his children dead, and the painting having been resold several times) it's not reasonable to expect those heirs to still have the evidence. Laches, or its equivalent, appears in most legal systems (to one degree or anther). In general, you have to actively seek payment of a debt or restitution for a crime (with a fairly low level of activity being all that's required) for that obligation to continue to exist. -- Hydrogenated 12:00, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

For the case of some of Gustav Klimt's paintings that were stolen by the Nazis, see Republic of Austria v. Altmann. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 12:09, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Also Jacques Goudstikker#Fate of Goudstikker's collection Gzuckier 15:52, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Fictional character w/ same first and last name

Can anybody recall a fictional character from a classic novel whose first and last names are the same? For example, "John John". I've been searching for half a day now to no avail. There doesn't seem to be a word to describe such a name either (I thought I'd find what to call it first, to improve my searches).

Any help would be greatly appreciated.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 131.107.0.73 (talk • contribs).

See Lolita.  --Lambiam 23:13, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm guessing Tin Tin doesn't count? (presumably that's also not his name...). I except nordic/icelandic literature will have more as they have some sort of setup that I expect makes this more likely? ny156uk 23:24, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Now, who could possibly forget Major Major Major from Joseph Heller's incomparable black comedy Catch 22? He joins the USAF as a private and is immediately promoted to the rank of-yes, you guessed it-Major! Some are born mediocre, some achieve mediocrity and some have mediocrity thrust upon them. With Major Major it had been all three. Clio the Muse 23:32, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Humbert Humbert in Lolita!! That's it! Thank you so very much Lambiam.

(after e.c., adding it anyway inspite of resolved state) I also thought of Durand Durand, so I googled "Durand Durand" and "Humbert Humbert" and found that Reuben has a list of people with same first and last name on his page. ---Sluzzelin talk 00:01, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Short story, but Edgar Allen Poe's "William Wilson" has two characters with the same name, and that name is, of course, William son of Will. Geogre 02:44, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I recall a very odd play wherein a character was named "Phonograph Phonographovich." I think he may have been a dog who somehow became a person in Russia. Edison 02:50, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Sirhan Sirhan --Wetman 05:50, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

There is nothing fictional about him, Wetman, sad to say. Clio the Muse 05:53, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

That might be Polygraph Polygraphovich Sharikov. --Reuben 07:51, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

The very play! I guess I just like phonographs more than polygraphs, and that distorted the recollection. Edison 19:04, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry to pour cold water on this handsome dog, but once we get into patronymics the list is endless - Nikolai Nikolaevich, Leonid Leonidovich, Michael Michaelovich, old Uncle Tomas Tomasovich and all. Xn4 10:58, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Not really on point, but I can't resist adding this line from Bill Bryson's wonderful The Mother Tongue:

The best [English names] go in for a kind of gloriously silly redundancy toward the end, as with Sir Humphrey Dodington Benedict Sherston Sherston-Baker and the truly unbeatable Leone Sextus Denys Oswolf Fraduati Tollemache-Tollemache-de Orellana-Plantagenet-Tollemache-Tollemache, a British army major who died in World War I.

--TotoBaggins 15:12, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

One of the best Sanskrit-English dictionaries is by Sir Monier Monier-Williams. —Tamfang (talk) 07:18, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

MEYER MEYER from the 87th Precint novels by Ed Mcbain

And then there is Dorothy Dunnett's character, Johnson Johnson -a portrait painter with a yacht called the Dolly Bird- from her now sadly out-of-print detective novels. Bielle 01:44, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not classic literature, but it is classic television: In the sitcom Home Improvement there is a character named Wilson W. Wilson Jr. (I wonder if his middle name is Wilson?) — Michael J 03:19, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Now I'm wondering what novel has a major character named August August, because an uncle(?) declared, "An August [born] in August can only be August!" —Tamfang (talk) 04:27, 8 August 2023 (UTC)