Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2006 October 25

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October 25

Comparing prizes for common goods and services

Hi, does anyone know if it exist a webpage that compare and update prizes for different items like food, alchohol, taxi and dining..For instance, on this site I would have been able to compare the prize for one beer in Athens with one beer in Mexico City. I understand that this kind of estimation have to be both roughly calculated and constantly updated. But does anyone know if a site like this exist? --Petteroes 08:27, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean prices ? StuRat 15:17, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

LOL! Of course! Sorry - I'm Norwegian...:)--Petteroes 15:42, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

No problem, I got the idea that English was a second language for you when you said "if it exist a webpage that compare and update". A native English speaker would have said "if a web page exists that compares and updates". Here is your question corrected, in case you would like to improve your English:

Hi, does anyone know if a web page exists that compares and updates prices for different items; like food, alcohol, taxi and dining ? For instance, on this site, I would be able to compare the price for one beer in Athens with one beer in Mexico City. I understand that this kind of estimation has to be both roughly calculated and constantly updated. Does anyone know if a site like this exists ?

StuRat 16:54, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

It would seem to be an impossible question concerning an impossible task, like counting the grains of sand on a beach. Just consider the amount of information that would have to be processed moment by moment. Clio the Muse 05:52, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

To be fair, they didn't say the site would have to list every product in every country. Perhaps it could just have a few sample products compared in several countries. StuRat 06:23, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, of course; but, even so, take the example of something simple, like the price of beer. How would you compensate for the differences between bar to bar, neighbourhood to neighbourhood, district to district, city to city etc. etc. etc.? I'm sure you get the picture. Taxi rides? I shall have a brain-storm even letting that one cross my mind! Clio the Muse 07:45, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

The search terms you are looking for is "cost of living" With this [1] google search you get a lot of worldwide results, some just compare salaries, while some others should compare housing and other goods, just look through the results a bit. Nowimnthing 16:22, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

A cost of living index adjusts for an average of many such items, but doesn't typically break down costs of each individual item by country. StuRat 22:50, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

All about Persia

What is the Total of Persian lemon production per year in tons and dollars for 2005 or 2006

- the Total of Imports of persian lemon per year

- the Persian Lemon prices (everywhere)

- and the names of the companies who sell the lemon

By Persia, do you mean Iran ? StuRat 15:15, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

He probably did mean Persia. See Iran naming dispute. JackofOz 23:35, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Or perhaps, as I mentioned below, in speaking of "Persian Lemons" s/he was referring to Persia/Iran no more than one would be referring to the capital of Belgium when speaking of Brussels sprouts. The Lime, also known as the Persian Lime, apparently originated in Persia/Iran, and, according to the article on it, its name was apparently "derived from the Persian name لیمو, limu (the fruit was introduced to Europe during the Crusades)". Of course the fruit is now cultivated around the world, and so its connection to Persia is in name and origin only. Loomis 23:14, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

General Motors, Ford and Chrysler sell lots and lots of lemons. Clarityfiend 16:47, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

They also sell lots of quality cars, and foreign companies have sold lots of lemons, too, like the infamous Yugo. Land Rover, with 204 problems per 100 models tracked, placed last in the 2006 J.D. Power & Associates Initial Quality Survey: [2]. The second to last place finish was Isuzu, with 191 problems. Cadillac, on the other hand, had a better quality rating than foreign car companies Acura, Nissan, Audi, Volvo, Mitsubishi, Kia, Mercedes, Scion, BMW, Subaru, Mazda, MINI, Saab, Suzuki, Isuzu, and Land Rover. So, your implication that all US cars are junk and foreign cars are quality is just plain wrong. StuRat 20:49, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Spoken like a true Michiganer ! Loomis 22:03, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Seriously though, despite the misleading header, the questioner is probably asking about a Persian Lime, which is much more commonly known simply as a Lime. I'm guessing that the Lime originated in Persia, but beyond that the question probably has little to do with Iran. Loomis 22:16, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Geez, lighten up StuRat. ==>> IT WAS A JOKE! <<== (Excuse me. I must report my success in wrecking the U.S. economy to my master, Kim Jong Il. He'll be tickled pink...er...red that he can bring the Great Enemy to its knees without bothering with all that nuclear bomb nonsense.) Clarityfiend 22:22, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but it's a sensitive topic here, where the local economy has been wrecked by exactly the misperception perpetuated by that type of joke. I therefore take every opportunity to set the record straight. StuRat 23:36, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, no more American car jokes. *heavy sigh* Clarityfiend 03:05, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Might I suggest Yugo jokes ? They really were crap, and now they don't even make them anymore, and the country no longer exists, so those jokes can't hurt anyone. StuRat 05:35, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Besides, doesn't Ford own "foreign" cars like Jaguar, Land Rover, Volvo and even a third of Mazda? Doesn't GM own Saab? Isn't Chrysler run from Stuttgart these days? Aren't most Toyotas and Hondas on the road today in the US manufactured in Kentucky, Indiana and Ohio? Doesn't GM manufacture more cars in Ontario than in Michigan? With the new global economy, it's not like the old days when an "American car" was an "American car", and a "foreign car" was a "foreign car". And that, in short, is what I have to say about the "Total of Persian lemon production per year in tons and dollars for 2005 or 2006". :) If I'm not mistaken, somebody up there originally asked a question about Persian citrus fruits. Loomis 12:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the original poster would like to clarify whether they are talking about Iran/Persia or just about a particular kind of citrus? And to sign their question with four tildes? (~~~~) Then it is possible that somebody might be able to help. --ColinFine 14:13, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Good point, Colin! Despite my efforts, I really have no idea what the original question was about. Perhaps it was about Iran, perhaps it was about lemons/limes, and perhaps it was even about very badly manufactured Iranian automobiles (not that I know that Iran produces any automobiles, but who knows). In any case, after days without clarification from the original questioner, and after apparently wasting our time in researching the origin of that really sour green citrus, at this point I don't feel there's any problem in salvaging this space for whatever discussion we see fit. Loomis 17:11, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Albert RN

I have a clear recollection of seeing Albert RN on television while in London in 1951 (no doubt about the date). However since the film was not released until 1953, what I saw could not have been the film. Was this a stage play previously and was the play broadcast on BBC in the summer of 1951?

Other titles:

• Break to Freedom (USA)
• Marlag 'O' Prison Camp (USA) (promotional title)
• Spare Man

--Light current 15:37, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Looks like youre correct! Albert (1951) was on TV. [3]--Light current 15:39, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

FlickBook

Could I please have some information concerning FlickBooks Things such as First Flickbook made When was it created? where was it most popular? what is the average page amount for a flick book?

--81.99.103.113 11:38, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

By "flick book" do you mean a book with a slightly different illustration on each page, such that you see apparent motion when flipping through the pages rapidly ? If so, those are called flip books. StuRat 15:06, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

They're often called "flick books" in the UK; actually until I read this I didn't realise "flip book" was used. I've set up a redirect from flick book, which should sort that out. Loganberry (Talk) 02:09, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Bosch, the last judgement.

I need a picture of Bosch's "The Last Judgement" with as high of a resolution as possible. Preferrably over 1500 pixels in all dimensions. Thanks. Clq 12:08, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Good site http://artchive.com/ftp_site.htm MeltBanana 13:08, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Note that after using the above link, you must pick "Bosch", on the left side, to get to the desired page. StuRat 15:01, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I found it. Thanks. Clq 22:32, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Is it legal for the British Secret Service to assasinate Dodi Al-Fayed ?

In British Law, treason is defined as

The British law of treason is entirely statutory and has been so since the Treason Act 1351 (25 Edw. 3 St. 5 c. 2). The Act is written in Norman French, but is more commonly cited in its English translation.

The Treason Act 1351 has since been amended several times, and currently provides for four categories of treasonable offences, namely:

• "when a man doth compass or imagine the death of our lord the King, or of our lady his Queen or of their eldest son and heir";
• "if a man do violate the King’s companion, or the King’s eldest daughter unmarried, or the wife of the King’s eldest son and heir";
• "if a man do levy war against our lord the King in his realm, or be adherent to the King’s enemies in his realm, giving to them aid and comfort in the realm, or elsewhere, and thereof be probably attainted of open deed by the people of their condition"; and
• "if a man slea the chancellor, treasurer, or the King’s justices of the one bench or the other, justices in eyre, or justices of assise, and all other justices assigned to hear and determine, being in their places, doing their offices".

And treason was punishable by death. The penalty for treason was changed from death to a maximum of imprisonment for life in 1998 under the Crime And Disorder Act. Before 1998, the death penalty was mandatory, subject to the royal prerogative of mercy.

On 31 August 1997 Diana was involved in a car accident in the Pont de l'Alma road tunnel in Paris.

What if it was not a car accident but an assasin sent to terminate Dodi Al-Fayed secretly but lawfully?

A british agent on her majesty secret service who is licenced to kill. 211.28.178.86 12:14, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Um, Dodi Fayed was just Diana's boyfriend. So he wouldn't come under the definition of treason you quote. Nor would Diana herself, since she and Charles were divorced at the time of her death. Furthermore, there was no conspiracy to assassinate either of them. Henri Paul was drunk at the wheel, he got into a chase with some paparazzi and the car crashed. End of story. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 12:25, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

duh! I forgot about the divorce. I thought I had something there. The Prince and Princess of Wales were separated on 9 December 1992; their divorce was finalised on 28 August 1996. 211.28.178.86 12:40, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Hypothetically if the secret service killed dodi fayed it would be illegal. Dodi was not guily of treason. Diana was divorced from charles and thus no longer his companion. Furthermore even if she where his companion, british law does not apply in france where the killing occured.

Is that right? If the Queen was murdered while on a state visit to some foreign country, would the assassin be beyond the reach of UK law? Would the British legal authorities have to settle for ensuring he was prosecuted under the law of the country in question? Would it make any difference if the assassin was a British citizen or not? JackofOz 21:13, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Check out the article on extraterritoriality, Jack. It's not the greatest article as it only deals with the issue conceptually and historically, yet says nothing definitively that would lead to an answer to your question. Still, it might give you a better idea as to the likely answer. Loomis 21:58, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

However I'm pretty sure that under international law it doesn't matter whether the killing would have been legal in the country in question or not (in any case, extra-judicial killings are rarely legal). This would be murder under French law and whatever the legality in the UK would be irrelevant under law. Of course, the French government could perhaps choose to go easily on the person. Extrajudicial killings even those that have gone wrong e.g. by Israeli agents have sometimes AFAIK been treated more lightly then they should have under law. Nil Einne 11:44, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Even if he was technically guilty of treason against the Crown, judgement and sentence would have to be determined in a court of law. An intelligence agency carrying out an extrajudicial killing would not be protected by the statutes of the Treason Act. --Canley 03:16, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

But if it had been approved by the Queen would it still be treason? I understand for example that Diana technically committed treason while she was Princess by sleeping around but AFAIK the reigning monarch can't commit treason against the crown/herself so it's questionable whether it would be treason if she approved it. It does matter if the person committed the killing was a British citizen (or other Commonwealth countries with the Queen as head of state). AFAIK there is no way someone who is not a citizen (or perhaps a permanent resident) of the UK or the other commonwealth countries could commit treason against the crown of the UK/commonwealth country.Anyway as others have stated, due to the divorce it seems unlikely it would have been treason to kill Diana even in the UK. N.B. High treason in the United Kingdom might be useful. Edit: Sorry I got confused and thought we were debating whether it was treason to kill Diana Nil Einne 11:24, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

You're making the mistake of excessive literalism here, and not understanding the importance of convention in the British system above and beyond the plain written text of the law. In modern times, the monarch's position as essentially above the law carries with it the unspoken quid pro quo that the monarch will act sensibly at all times, which means in the conduct of their official duties they will follow the advice of their ministers, and conduct themselves impeccably at other times. If they don't, ways and means of dealing with them will be found. If we're playing silly-buggers hypotheticals, if the need really arose you could have one of the other royals, um, quiet deal with the situation, and then be appointed monarch, at which point they would become immune from prosecution. --Robert Merkel 11:52, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

You're talking about a major change in the law. There is no provision in British law to enable someone to be appointed monarch. Whenever the current monarch dies or abdicates, the person at the head of the line of succession inherits the throne. They themselves have no say about this. If they have become or married a Catholic, or died, then they're off the list and somebody else would be the heir. Deposing a monarch could be done, but probably under the legal artifice of an act of parliament under which they are deemed to have abdicated. JackofOz 03:01, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

This is an interesting topic and I'd love to get in on it, yet I'm confused by your response, Jack. Are you responding to Robert? If so I don't see where you disagree with him. Is it the fact that he said: "one of the other royals" rather than: "the royal next in line"? What exactly do you mean by "a major change in the law"? I'm sure your contribution was meaningful and intelligent, and that's why I'd be very interested if you could clarify what you said. Loomis 11:53, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Hmmmm...now that I think about it, I wonder whether there may be some other individuals who may actually be guilty of treason according to the above-mentioned statute. :) Loomis 22:53, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I acknowledge your astuteness, Loomis, in recognizing my meaningfulness and intelligence. Yes, the royal next in line is who the law says succeeds, not just some other preferred royal. If for argument's sake the "establishment" considered Prince Charles so undesirable that something had to be done to ensure he never became monarch, what would the options be? (a) Kill him. (b) Somehow arrange for him to marry a Catholic - impossible without first bumping off Camilla or getting them divorced, and next to impossible in any event. (c) Somehow arrange for him to convert to Catholicism himself. In any of these scenarios, Prince William would succeed Elizabeth, because he would be next in line. If William was also unacceptable, he would also have to be put through a death/Catholicism process and Prince Harry would then succeed. etc etc. If the "powers that be" wanted the Duke of Duckworth to become king, they could not just "appoint" him without bringing about a change in the law to allow such an appointment. Such a change would require the consent not just of the UK Parliament but of the parliaments of all the Commonwealth Realms. For the Duke to become king within the existing law, firstly he would have to be in the line of succession, and then everybody ahead of him (including the current monarch) would have to die, be killed, become a Catholic, or marry a Catholic. Removal of people from the line in any other way would require a change in the law. Installing a monarch extra-legally would amount to a coup. JackofOz 01:48, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the "next in line part", and that's what I was getting at. However, it might be a bit easier to knock Charles out of the picture in favour of William than your three options. If the government and the PM dislike him enough, they could simply put as much pressure on him to abdicate as they had on Edward VIII, who was neither killed, nor married to a Catholic, nor converted to Catholicism. Loomis 09:50, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

French franc in 1910? (take two)

Do you know what the worth of the French franc in 1910 would be?

Your question was already answered, scroll up a bit to Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Humanities#Franc value in 1910 — QuantumEleven 13:04, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

The problem there was that you didn't provide a unit of comparison. What was the value of the French Franc in 1910 as compared to what? Loomis 21:43, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

The value of the French franc in 1910? Why, exactly the same as it was in 1909 and 1911: it was worth one franc. Clio the Muse 22:47, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. One French Franc in 1910 was worth 100 1910 centimes, or, if you prefer, one tenth of a 1910 ten Franc note. :) Do you now see why it was impossible to answer your question the first time around? I'm not trying to mock, but perhaps if you'd give us a bit of context as to why you're asking this particular question, we'd be much better able to help. Loomis 23:37, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

In fact, it was not only possible to answer the question the first time, it was answered. Several times, but only one of the answers was actually useful. It might be best if those staffing the reference desk opted to provide only useful answers. - Nunh-huh 23:48, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

You are obviously annoyed, justifiably so. Any reasonable person would have accepted your useful and detailed answer the first time round, on the assumption that there was a serious intent behind the question. The fact is, though, your research on this was ignored; which means that the whole issue is best treated as a joke. Clio the Muse 23:58, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I'd agree with you if this were the joke desk. Since it's the reference desk, the equivalent of "see above" was the reasonable response to the repeated question. The answers at a reference desk are supposed to provide information nto the questioner. Answers which seem to have come into being only to make the responder feel or appear to be smarter than the questioner are really out of line. I think the policy suggested on the talk page - of removing unresponsive answers - would do much to improve the page. Nunh-huh 00:13, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I really do not want to take this too far, but cast your eye over some of the questions that have been placed on this page. There would seem to be a great many jokers. I treat all questions with the level of seriousness I believe they deserve. Where an honest and straightforward answer is asked for that is exactly what I will give, within my degree of competence. I suppose by definition the person who answers the question-if it is an honest answer-is indeed 'smarter', if that's the right word, than the questioner, since they already have the information required. But to be pefectly frank with you I also believe that a fool is best treated in accordance with the measure of his folly. There is wisdom in that and a purpose in jokes; and I assure you I am not attempting to be glib. Clio the Muse 00:29, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

The reference desk would be much improved if the page were treated a bit more seriously. Or, conversely, if only funny jokes appeared here.- Nunh-huh 01:03, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

The problem with that idea is that the definition of "funny" is not "whatever Nunh-huh thinks is funny". I think a reasonable level of humour is perfectly fine, nay essential. The question is, where do you draw the line, and we could probably debate that till kingdom come without ever coming to a consensus. I have less of a problem with jokes (being a regular punster myself) than I do with people who respond to questions saying they have no idea what the answer is but then provide a guess anyway. Astute guesses have their place, but wild off-the-planet guesses are very unhelpful. Would you want a reference librarian who guessed the answers to questions rather than went away and looked in the right place for the answer? Not me. I know this is now getting way off-topic, but that happens sometimes. JackofOz 01:57, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, what one wants at a reference desk is the correct answer, or, if that cannot be obtained, helpful guidance as to where one might find that answer. Not guesses, and not jokes. - Nunh-huh 02:04, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree with you, sorry. Proper questions should always be answered by precise and correct answers. But where a question is frivolous or malicious it should be dealt with accordingly, either by condescension or humour. I'm a little surprised that you seem blind to this simple point. You are not, I hope, without humour, an essential ingredient of true wit. Clio the Muse 08:03, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

This particular question was neither frivolous nor malicious, and should not have been dealt with by either condescension or mockery. Humor certainly has its place, but there are contexts in which it has neither purpose nor beneficial effect. Condescension is particularly inappropriate. - Nunh-huh 16:05, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm with Clio on this one, but I'd just like to add: You have to remember that we're all volunteers here, and we're all human beings as well, not humourless androids. If in the process of learning and teaching we have a little fun, I'm all for it. To be honest, if humour was forbidden at the RefDesk, and it was instead reduced to a sterile Q&A page, I'd imagine many valuable contributors would just stop coming, to everyone's detriment. I know I'd have no interest in slavishly answering other people's questions if I weren't allowed to have a bit of fun in the process.

With regards to Jack's comment, I too try my best to provide accurate answers, and very occasionally, I do provide what I'd call an educated guess. But whenever doing so, I always make sure to make it explicit that I'm not 100% sure on the answer. I hope that in that sense at least, I'm keeping up with the high standards to be expected here. Loomis 11:28, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Nunh-huh, the first question was not frivolous; the second clearly is, because it had already been answered, and the answer ignored. Condescension is appropriate where it is invited; and this is the approach I would take where I feel that the question has a malicious intent. Clio the Muse 23:00, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh for god's sake, gold was money then, not the worthless fiat currency we have now. Exactly how much gold the FF represented at that time is explained in French franc. -THB 03:42, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Of course that inevitably leads to the further question: how much is/was gold worth? And once again, expressed through what unit of comparison? Loomis 20:34, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I want to study law and qualify as an attorney, but dont want to practise

Please, can anyone provide me with information about online colleges or distance learning schools. Where i can enroll and study to qualify as an attorney. i am looking for colleges that they fees are not too high, and ones that have flexible study programs that you can accerlerate your course. Thanks for your help.

Kenandrewandyke 15:05, 25 October 2006 (UTC)Please, can anyone provide me with information about online colleges or distance learning schools. Where i can enroll and study to qualify as an attorney.

i am looking for colleges that they fees are not too high, and ones that have flexible study programs that you can accerlerate your course.

Thanks for your help.

i need urgent replies please about qualifying as an attorney i need to study either through online or distance learning and enroll on colleges that you can accelerate your course i am in the United States [email address removed] Thanks

I have removed your email address for your own protection. Take a look at Legal education. Strong English writing skills are generally required for a law degree. I don't know whether any law school offers remote courses, but you can search Google with terms like "law degree" and "distance learning". Marco polo 16:34, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

States vary but, usually you need a ba and law degree to practice usually 7 years. Some states have other programs. For example in virgina and vermont, one can still become a lawyer by reading law.

Add to that whatever amount of time it takes to pass the bar, depending on whichever state you're in. Loomis 21:37, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

American history

What is another major event in American history from 1300 -1500 AD other than the discovery of America by Columbus?

Since USA didn't exist at that time, are you referring to North America, South America or both? 惑乱 分からん 17:33, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Since there are two major meanings of America and he obviously doesn't mean the second one (for Columbus didn't discover the US), it must be the first one, which regards America as one continent. DirkvdM 11:10, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

The rise of the Inca empire.

• The disappearance the Mississippean culture due to disease? Geogre 12:34, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Where did the disease come from? The Europeans, or was it "native"? 惑乱 分からん 12:53, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Try Mississippian culture. Cahokia was certainly abandoned during that period, but the cause is not known. --ColinFine 14:23, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

The Iroquois Confederacy was probably established around that time. Adam Bishop 17:26, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

"Degrees of Protection" of a currency

There's a confusing section on Kazakhstani tenge which says:

Kazakhstani tenge has 18 degrees of protection. Tenge is one of the most "equipped" currencies of the world.

I can't work out what this means. Haven't found anything either on Wikipedia or on the internet at large that would explain what "degrees of protection" are when talking about a currency.

Does anyone know what this means? If it's rubbish I'll remove it. Thanks -- Muntfish 16:01, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

It originates from an edit made by Geevee on April 3rd, 2006.

It seems to be a translation from Russian:

• У казахстанского тенге 18 степеней защиты. Тенге в числе самых «экипированных» валют мира.

Possibly it's referring to security features, such as holograms and watermarks. 惑乱 分からん 16:17, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, степень in this sentence has the sense of a step, or a measure. I'd suggest this is a better form of words: "The Kazakhstani tenge has 18 security features, more than most other currencies.". JackofOz 21:07, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Would you mind editing the article? 惑乱 分からん 22:16, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Not at all. JackofOz 23:23, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

User:Crazy Fox has beaten me to it, and came up with an even better sentence. JackofOz 23:27, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks all, it makes a bit more sense now, but I still think it could benefit from some clarification that this refers specifically to the banknotes (and which ones - just the 2006 issue, or previous issues as well) - not the currency in a more general (economic) sense. And the section name still says "Degrees of Protection".... thanks -- Muntfish 10:53, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

need help urgently

the question is Which mission is known as the "most expensive rubbish in history"?

need answers..

I guess that depends on personal opinion... There's no clear answer... 惑乱 分からん 17:31, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

No way of answering that - if nothing else, what sense of the word Mission are you using? --Mnemeson 17:43, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Have no idea if this is what you're thinking of, but could just as well suggest the Bay of Pigs Invasion... 惑乱 分からん 17:48, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

The Iraq War comes to mind. When not adjusted for inflation, has there ever been a more expensive unsuccessful mission ? StuRat 20:40, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Generally, it seems as a failure, although Iraq wasn't a particularly nice country to begin with. At least it was successful in accomplishing its primary target, removing Saddam Hussein from power. 惑乱 分からん 22:15, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

That depends if you're only counting expenditure, or if lost revenue is counted - Norway's yearly expenditure is approx US$100bn. Their income is approx. US$150bn. All of the surplus, and some of the expenditure, is covered by their massive oil revenues, with which they fund the highest standard of living in the world, and bank enough money every year to run the country at that standard for 6 months even if they had absolutely no tax revenue (a rather impressive racket that they've been running for 4 decades now). Considering that, I think the failure of Sweden to assert their control over Norway in 1905 when Norway declared their independence was.. quite stupendous, dwarfing Iraq by a long way in terms of lost money. The Swedish King attempted to do so, and raise an army, but the Swedish people refused to take up arms, so a completely failed military mission with substantial consequences. --Mnemeson 21:34, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Heheheh... Well, to be fair, Norway didn't find oil until 60-70 years later. As far as I have understood, in 1905, Norway didn't have much of value. The way I have heard the story, a war would have been completely pointless, but a lot of nationalist conservatives in the government wanted a war, because of silly notions of "national honor". After somebody estimated that a war really would cost more than it would gain, someone was chosen as a scapegoat to prevent the war from happen, and everybody else to keep their honor mostly intact. I don't know this history as good as I should, I really should catch up on the details... 惑乱 分からん 22:15, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't familiar with the Norway story, but hearing it, I'm truly impressed with how well the Norweigians exploit their natural resources to the benefit of their citizens. To tie two of the threads of this question together, I just can't help but wonder and dream of the utterly amazing standard of living the Iraqis would have if, after being freed from the slavery of dictatorship, they just simply followed the Norweigian example. Oh well, I guess I'm just a dreamer. But I haven't entirely given up hope. In the words of the immortal Lenin: "Some may say, I'm a dreamer. But I'm not the only one. Perhaps someday you'll join us. And the world will live as one." Wait a sec, did Lenin actually say that? :) Loomis 23:30, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Seems like our senses of humour do sometimes coincide. :) DirkvdM 12:17, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey! I'm feeling more hopeful already. If Loomis and Dirk's senses of humour can coincide, then perhaps peace in Iraq, the Middle East, and even the entire world is possible! :) Loomis 11:09, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I doubt the common Iraqi population has much possibilities at the meantime. The country seems to be in a state of chaos, with local warlords competing for personal power and gain. 惑乱 分からん 01:47, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I think it's finally time for me to admit it. The old proverb is true. The path to hell is indeed paved with good intentions. Loomis 05:08, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Don't want to cause a war here but AFAIK Iraq were expressedly forbidden from allowing any form of nationalisation of their petroleum resources by the US (and possibly the UK) when forming the new government. So it seems unlikely they could follow the Norway story even if they weren't blowing each other up (and some might say they're blowing each other up because of that but let's not go further there) Nil Einne 12:22, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Do you have any evidence for this ? I've seen just the opposite, a proposal by US Congressmen to provide Iraqis each with a payment from oil production, so they each have a stake in it. StuRat 17:58, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

That just doesn't make any sense Stu. Are you trying to say that there was actually a plan whereby the Iraqi people would actually benefit from the wealth of their own country's natural oil resources? That's got to be nonsense! How would Haliburton benefit from this? Are you saying that the US administration actually dared to put the interests the Iraqi people before the interests of wealthy American oilmen? That's preposterous! Are you actually implying that the goal of the whole thing was actually to benefit the Iraqi people, and was not, as anyone with half a brain sees it, all about taking control of Iraq's oil resources to benefit America's fat-cat elites? Stu...you're being absurd. :--) Loomis 09:40, 30 October 2006 (UTC) (Sorry, forgot to sign again...this is becoming a bad habit). Loomis 09:40, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

The proposal came from some Congressmen, not the administration, so you may well be right about them. StuRat 22:12, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the entire war was approved by Congress, 77-23 in the Senate, and 296-133 in the House. Loomis 10:13, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't surprise me a bit, it's easy to be suspicious when you consider all the dictators which USA isn't trying to remove. 惑乱 分からん 12:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Slobodan Milošević didn't have any oil, yet the US still attacked him. StuRat 17:58, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

It's so ambiguous that it cannot possibly be a genuine (well thought-through) question. Perhaps it's a pun, or some other tease. Maybe the person who set it is looking for genuine rubbish, like a piece of artwork, made of rubbish, with the word "Mission" in its title? --Dweller 21:37, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

The mission impossible movies? Clq 22:34, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

The same question has been posed on yahoo answers, the two onl answers there say "Litter left behind from the Apollo moon landings", though that would not make it a "mission" Clq 22:36, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey guys, thanks for the help.. the answer WAS Apollo - but the deadline was already over by then.. it was an inhouse quiz question.. Thanks for the help though Arun

Damn, I wanted to say that! Alas I only go through the ref desk once a day. Actually, I was thinking of the Apollo mission itself and manned space exploration in general. Scientifically speaking, you can do much more for a fraction of the money if you send robots because manned spacecrafts have to provide life support for the people on board, be safe enough (losing a robot is an acceptable risk) and return back to Earth (and safely land). Just look at what the Voyager program and Pioneer program brought us (alas the articles don't state the cost). What did 'we' get out of the Apollo program? Some national pride for the US and some shots of guys playing golf on the Moon. DirkvdM 12:17, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

While it's true that robotic missions are less expensive now, especially for long trips, that was not true at the time of the Apollo program, since robotic technology wasn't up to the job, then. There was also quite a scientific benefit, such as being able to retrieve moon rocks and study the geology of the moon, and developing the basic concepts of space travel for subsequent missions. StuRat 12:14, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, the robots would of course have been much simpler then, but they certainly could bring rocks back to the Earth. The first one to do so was Luna 16. I don't see a price indication, but I bet it cost only a fraction of what the Apollo flights cost. But you don't need to examine rock to do scientific research. Taking photos is a major fist step, like Luna 3 taking photos of the invisible far side of the Moon. Mariner 2 took some close ups of Venus and the Venera program went even more close up, taking reading and photos from the surface, somewhere where people could never go, even with today's technology. And sending people where the Voyagers and Pioneers went is still way out of our league. So yeah, unmanned space exploration is definitely the way to go. Unless we establish bases in space or on other heavenly bodies, and Mir has shown how much difficulty that entails. DirkvdM 19:41, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Luna 16 just drilled a hole in a random spot (where it landed) to take a sample. Humans, on the other hand, could walk around and select rocks and items of interest to take back. As for space stations, you are aware there is one up there now, right ? See ISS. StuRat 22:06, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Luna 17 had Lunokhod 1 on board, only 4 years <wrong - see below> after the first manned Moon landings. The USSR tried to get a man on the Moon too, but it's a good thing they developed the technology just too late to beat the US, because that meant that after that they went all-out for unmanned missions. Had they not wasted time and energy on manned landings, they would probably have developed the rovers sooner. (The concept was 'easy' enough to develop with the technology of the time.) And that is my point. If the money that went into manned missions had been put into (ten times as many?) unmanned missions we would have learned a lot more a lot sooner. The Lunokhods didn't return any rocks <also wrong - see below>, but had they had the money for the Apollo programme at their disposal, they most probably would have done a whole lot more. An advantage of unmanned rovers is that they can in principle go as far as they wish - Lunokhod 2 travelled 35 km. With the technology of the time, no human could have travelled anything close to that, largely for safety reasons. Lunar rover says about the US manned rovers that "the greatest range from the LM was 7.6 km."

And yes, of course I know about the ISS, and one difficulty is that people are willing to risk their health for an adventurous job, but for a space station to be successfull it has to be constantly manned, which requires a lot of people to 'rotate' because staying in space is a serious health hazard (especially a problem for Mars missions, which take as long as a year). But if the adventure is gone, people will be less willing to go. Except maybe Russians, ironically, because they've got this attitude that nothing can harm them (a cultural thing). DirkvdM 08:41, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

During that period of rapid scientific advances, 4 years made a huge difference. Look at the differences in technology available during the Apollo program with those from 4 years before it's inception. StuRat 13:49, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Correction. That was 1970 (very sloppy, sorry), so just one year later. And it did bring back samples of the Moon. See Luna programme. You're being sloppy too, though. Your point actually supports my position. With the speed at which technology developed it made more sense to put time and money in improving robots than starting manned missions. Ultimately, robots have done science much more good than manned missions. Certainly if you look at yield per cost. DirkvdM 14:07, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

But once you go down that "wait until we have better technology" road, you can wait indefinitely, as surely there will always be better technology available next year. StuRat 21:49, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. Unmanned space flight will always be more useful (per buck) to science. Manned space flight might be fun, but it should not be confused with doing serious research. Mixing entertainment up with science forces scientists to perform tricks in stead of doing science. Maybe Hollywood should do the manned space flight bit. Too expensive for Hollywood you say? Well, if there is not enough entertainment value, then why waste so much money on it? Of course if you do both, it makes sense to combine them, but I don't see the point in wasting, what is it, 90% of the budget of space agencies on entertainment. DirkvdM 07:23, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

But USA beat the Russians, USA beat the Russians to it!!! @_@ 惑乱 分からん 12:52, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

This doesn't look inhouse to me [4]. BTW, the whole question is much clearer as to what it's asking then the version you posted... I suggest you tell whoever was writing the questions to write their own questions and also to copy the complete question and not just part of it if they are going to copy. Nil Einne 12:28, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, if that question was posted, it would probably be answered in less than 30 minutes... 惑乱 分からん 12:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

More like 30 seconds, unless of course the "Voyager" they were talking about was the tv series. :) (Just kidding -- I'm a bit of a Trekkie myself...only a bit though, I swear I've never been to a convention, I don't speak Klingon and no, I don't even own a pair of cheesy costume Vulcan ears :) Loomis 11:02, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Ann Coulter

Am I the only person to find her sexually attractive here? Even though she has far-right views and I'm virtually a communist, there's something about her. They do say that opposites attract. Does anyone have any sexy pics of her? --84.65.103.207 23:05, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

This one works for me.  --Lambiam^Talk 23:19, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

So you don't mind the Adam's apple, huh? User:Zoe|(talk) 02:37, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

She's mildly attractive but the picture on her page makes her look rather ugly (anorexic and old). I mentioned this before on the talk page and suggest we find a better one but no one seemed to care (and since I think she's an idiot I didn't follow up on the issue). The picture itself comes from her page which is one reason it's used so perhaps she doesn't agree Nil Einne 11:51, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, she's damn ugly on that pic. And if that is the picture she prefers then maybe she is ugly on the inside as well. DirkvdM 12:23, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

She always reminds me of Hitler's ideal Aryan breeding stock. There was a Star Trek where a planet goes Nazi after a historian from the Federation shows up. The female Party leader on the planet was a dead ringer for Coulter. Geogre 12:33, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if she prefers it. There are several none of them of particular good quality [5]. Perhaps she should fire her web developer but I guess it's hard to get someone who would want to work for you when you're Ann Coulter :-P

Are you implying that all web developers are freedom-hating communists and terrorist sympathizers? :) I'm not a big fan of AC but I do admire her idealistic, straight-talking nature and her 'never say die' attitude. She doesn't strike me as the sort of person that could ever be bought or sold by anyone either. I'd have much more faith in Ann Coulter as president than GWB. --WineBob 00:51, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

You really admire a woman who said that the widows of 9/11 are happy that their husbands died and are more interested in self-aggrandizement than in getting answers to what happened? User:Zoe|(talk) 01:35, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

And for that matter, you think someone who could write the astonishingly dishonest drivel in Godless is 'straight-talking'? Good grief. Sam Clark 11:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok let's sum up the above comments. One certain allegedly sexy Republican female is: "Anorexic", "Hitler's Ideal Breeding Stock", "Ugly on Both the Inside and Outside" and "Astonishingly Dishonest". What a brilliant Democratic display to a dissenting view. Beautiful!

Oh well. If only she was as irresistably attractive, debonnaire and oh so suave as Michael Moore, and so astonishingly truthful as he was in his brilliantly unbiased masterpiece: Fahrenheit 9/11... well ... Loomis 07:09, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

From this discussion I was expecting her to look like Mo Mowlam. Skittle 17:57, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

At this point, I would like to interject and comment that, having weighed up all the available visual evidence - I would 'do' Ann Coulter. --Kurt Shaped Box 18:33, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Highest paying profesions

Hi guys! what are (or will be in the next 5 years) the highest paying jobs and/or prophesions?.

here are some jobs, tell me if any of this isn't high paying and stress the ones that are. (specially for foreign people in countries like Canada, the US, Australia and France).

• chef.(technical degree)
• computer programer and/or graphic designer (informatics)(technical degree).

...uh... any more ideas?. --Cosmic girl 23:16, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

what is the relation between quality assurance and training? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by M25farid (talk • contribs) .

Chefs have technical degrees? And for what country specifically, because I'm pretty sure it differs from one country to the next. Generally, doctors in the US have some of the highest paying jobs. I know for Texas, the highest average salary was for chiropractors a few years ago. And of course, no one can predict the next five years. And it's profession. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 23:57, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Entrepeneurial jobs can be very lucrative too. It's just like scrounging around in the dark though; sometimes you find crap, sometimes you find gold. --AstoVidatu 00:23, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Jobs where you have to know how to spell properly. 8-)--Light current 00:26, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

The highest paying jobs (other than being a celebrity or CEO) are generally jobs as a hedge fund manager or investment banker with an institution like Goldman Sachs. Most Goldman Sachs associates make more than $400,000 a year. You don't even really have to know how to spell. :-) You just have to come up with ingenious ways to rip other people off. They generally prefer MBAs, preferably from places like Harvard, Stanford, or perhaps Oxford or Cambridge. Jobs as chefs don't pay terribly well in the US. An average chef probably makes at or slightly below the median salary. Of course a star chef does fairly well (but nowhere near an average hedge fund manager). Computer programmers and graphic designers have average to slightly above average salaries. Computer programmers in particular are facing a lot of competition these days from low-paid programmers in India. Marco polo 00:59, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I dunno. Maybe this is a clever neologism (is that the right term?) - a prophesy about a profession. Clarityfiend 02:33, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure she knows how to spell it properly in her native language; Spanish. Do you know how to spell it in Chinese? German? Italian? Let's keep it down with the spelling jokes, some people are actually trying here.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  03:16, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

If she's hispanic, perhaps she didn't refer to chef/cook, but "jefe", chief/boss/head... An easy mistake... 惑乱 分からん 11:13, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

thank u freshgavin =)...the jokes where funny neways...I don't mind :P. but I wonder...what was funnier...profesion? or prophesion? I guess the later...but I corrected it soon enough I guess... dunno how u figured out I spelled it that way the 1st time. I guess I'll just have to ask Aleksey Vayner about success...lol.(success spelling and finding a 'prophesion'I like more than mine, and one that pays nicely, not cause I care a lot about money, but cause I wanna teach someone a lesson :|...( I know..random)--Cosmic girl 03:40, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of El Jefe, there will probably be a vacancy in Cuba sometime in the next few years. And since one reasoning is that Castro solely represents the Cuban government and the government is supposed to possess the entire economy of the island, he sometimes appears some list of the richest people in the world. Being hispanoparlante would actually be an advantage for any job applications there. And you can put on your CV that you have participated in one of the grandest communist enterprises the world has ever seen, Wikipedia. DirkvdM 12:32, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

The highest job would probably be to be the founder of an extremely succesfully company, like Bill Gates. If this doesn't work for you, you could always become the dictator of some rich country. Nil Einne 12:52, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I want neither...so being a computer programer or a biotechnology scientist won't do? lol... I don't wanna be filthy rich, though, I just want a col job like designing videogames with a nice paycheck. --Cosmic girl 13:34, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, in that case, I think you primarily need to work hard and make your name known... 惑乱 分からん 13:41, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

If you're serious about programming videogames, it might interest you to know that the DigiPen Institute of Technology [6] in (where else) Redmond, WA offers a four year B.Sc. in Realtime Interactive Simulation. I remember reading an article about designing them - they were more interested in creative people, artists, writers, etc., rather than technical skills, I think. Clarityfiend 01:38, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Make your name known, yes. Working hard is one way to do that, but if that's what it takes for you you might be doing the wrong thing. Try something you can be good at jut by being clever. DirkvdM 09:20, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Like spending your days editing at the Wikipedia RefDesk rather than getting a REAL job, Dirk? :) Sorry, I just couldn't resist. :) I'd expand on that notion but I'm off to work. See you back here when I get home, relax, perhaps crack open a beer and enjoy the RECREATION that is the Wikipedia RefDesk. :--) Loomis 13:16, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Just like I do, except I mostly do it in the morning before I start to WORK on the encyclopedia. :) DirkvdM 07:25, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Are you telling us your posts are usually written in a state of drunken inebriation, Dirk? That would certainly explain a few things ... :) JackofOz 10:29, 30 October 2006 (UTC)