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October 19

English Horn and (concert pitch) low D

According to Cor anglais (edit contributed by Jerome Kohl and sourced to Norman Del Mar Anatomy of the Orchestra pp.158-159) Antonín Dvořák's Scherzo capriccioso uses a low D on the instrument (whose lowest note normally is a low E) and yet (according to the article and presumably Norman Del Mar's book) an extension down to that note is unlikely to have ever been manufactured? Could someone explain? How is that note then produced? If you have access to Norman Del Mar's book, does he say anything? 178.51.16.158 (talk) 20:22, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In a part score at Free-scores.com for the Corno inglese, we see in bars 90 & 92 a D₃ (notated A₃), but in an orchestral score at Free-scores.com the Cor.ingl. plays a D₄ in these bars (notated A₄). So I guess one solution is that the player plays these notes an octave up. --Lambiam 09:10, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Prior to an informed answer (which I hope we get), I can offer a number of mostly unserious conjectures.

(1) Dvořák, not a woodwind player, didn't know (or forgot) that the note was below the instrument's range.

(2) He knew, and intended it as a joke. Perhaps he was pranking the player(s) in the particular Prague orchestra the piece was written for.

(3) He knew, but didn't care – the music demanded that note and it was up to the players and instrument makers to achieve it.

(4) He knew the particular orchestra had an unusual variant of the instrument (part of the oboe family, perhaps a forerunner of the Bass oboe) that could play the note.

(5) He had intended that the part be played on a bassoon, but forgot to indicate this in the score.

(6) It was a simple transcription error, which he was not immune to – see Antonín Dvořák#String quartets.

Have fun shooting these down. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.86.81 (talk) 03:45, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is a different, but also a very interesting question. Maybe the answer is something close to (3): that's what he heard, and even though he knew it couldn't be done, that's still what he heard that English horn doing. As to the practical solution, my guess would be that what people do is what Lambiam suggested. I even think in the part score that Lambiam mentions, in some places, someone wrote by hand a high A above the printed low A in the score. But there are several recordings of the piece on YouTube, so if you or anyone hears well and likes that piece or are curious about it, they could give it a listen and report back here what they've heard. Does anyone know of other such "ideal" unplayable notes in the standard literature? (Ignoring modern works that call for notes in the range of what's only audible to bats, where the note itself is a prank, the impossibility being the very purpose, meant to demonstrate something, although I'm never sure what.) 178.51.16.158 (talk) 11:21, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is a story about one famous composer (who, I've forgotten) showing another musician a piano score he'd just written, which at one point had left and right hands busy respectively low and high on the keyboard while a single note was sounded around its middle. When his visitor protested that this was impossible to play, the composer commenced the piece, and at the crucial moment leant forward and struck the crucial key with his nose.

By the way, I should have included with my earlier suggestions: (7) It was an error by the score's publisher. As a former professional book editor, I am well aware that printed works are rarely completely error-free, and I'm sure this applies to printed music as well as to texts. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.86.81 (talk) 12:36, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There's a high D₈ in Scriabin's Piano Sonata No. 6 that was not available on any piano during the composer's lifetime. (Nowadays it exists on Stuart & Sons' extended-range pianos.) Nikolai Zhilyayev's edition comments that the composer substituted it with a C₈ in performance. Double sharp (talk) 06:25, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]