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June 3

Copyright on arrangement of songs

A recent court ruling confirmed that only the lyrics and melody of songs can be copyrighted. Chord progressions cannot be copyrighted. I assume that riffs can't be copyrighted either. But what would "Sunshine of Your Love", "Smoke on the Water", "In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida", and many other songs be without their riff? Riffs are not copyrightable, right? Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 23:36, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As you know, we cannot give legal advice, but it seems to me you just need to track down this vague "recent court ruling" and decide for yourself. However, it would make sense for short musical phrases or chord progressions not to be copyrightable, as only a relatively limited number of them are possible, and some are quite common. As for what those songs would be without their riffs, I suspect they wouldn't be much good, but no one is suggesting removing those riffs are they? Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:11, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

He's probably talking about Ed_Sheeran#Legal_issues, a recent case that got a lot of publicity. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:34, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

See Pachelbel Rant about the numerous popular songs that use Pachelbel's Canon as a riff (good news - it's out of copyright). Alansplodge (talk) 12:51, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I would be cautious about reading too much into one case especially since it was a jury verdict and so doesn't set any sort of legal precedent. See e.g. [1], [2], [3] Nil Einne (talk) 18:38, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Your opening sentence seems to suggest that a ruling in a certain court in a certain jurisdiction applies to all other courts in all other jurisdictions. I seriously doubt it works that way, but IANAL. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:01, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well, Pachwhbel is too old to be under copyright. To shorten the question, can riffs, such as the ones that are the basis for those songs, be copyrighted? Do they constitute an arrangement of the song? Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 23:24, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

On a related note, from The House of the Rising Sun,

"The Animals version was played in 6/8 meter, unlike the 4/4 of most earlier versions. Arranging credit went only to Alan Price. According to Burdon, this was simply because there was insufficient room to name all five band members on the record label, and Alan Price's first name was first alphabetically. However, this meant that only Price received songwriter's royalties for the hit, a fact that has caused bitterness among the other band members ever since."

How could he get songwriting royalties for an old song in the public domain? Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 04:40, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

While the song itself was public domain, that arrangement was not. Perhaps the confusion is over the definition of "arrangement." They wrote a song that had the general chord progessions and mostly the same lyrics as the public domain song, but what they wrote was new. The Beatles ran into a similar issue by sampling a new arrangement from a public domain song for the ending of All You Need Is Love, thinking it would be public domain, but it wasn't. 97.82.165.112 (talk) 11:49, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So does a riff, as mentioned at the beginning, count as an arrangement? Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 15:21, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You have to define "riff." If I hit a basic C chord twice and call it a riff, would anyone consider that an arrangement? If I use three chords across four measures of music, playing some form of rhythm, I could call that a riff and it would be very very very different from just hitting a chord twice. This specifically came up with "Under Pressure." There is a riff in the baseline that is one note repeated multiple times and then one other note. Back to the start and repeat, over and over. Vanilla Ice took that for his song. He even claimed that he added one extra note after the riff, which made it different. The judge didn't agree it was different. He stated that Queen's riff was copyrightable and that Vanilla Ice infringed upon that. But, it is possible another judge would disagree. You are getting into law. It isn't "right and wrong." 97.82.165.112 (talk) 16:37, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Another example... "You Can't Hurry Love" has a riff played in the background. While many think that is the original version of the riff, it isn't. It was used in "He's Right On Time" and multiple gospel songs, but in a much slower tempo. Then, the American Forces Network in Germany (and possibly the rest of Europe) played the rhythm using a "blip" sound like a Morse code. David Bowie heard it and really liked it, so he introduced it to Iggy Pop when they worked on "Lust For Life." It was immediatly obvious to many people that it ripped off the riff from "You Can't Hurry Love," but I have no knowledge of a lawsuit. That would be troublesome seeing as the the riff was already copied for that song. It didn't end there. It was borrowed over and over. Jet borrowed it for "Are You Gonna Be My Girl." Some people said they ripped of "Lust For Life." Others said they ripped off "You Can't Hurry Love." In the end, all it takes is a lawyer you wants to make money to get someone - anyone - to be a client so they can create a lawsuit. But, for this riff, I don't think that has happened. 97.82.165.112 (talk) 16:46, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I see that it isn't very clear-cut. I have no intention of being in a lawsuit - I was just wondering. I agree with the judge in the Vanilla Ice case. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 15:17, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A little off the track, I've been trying to remember a song which lifted a portion of a "vocal riff" from A Day in the Life, i.e. the da-da-da-da stuff between the verses of that Beatles song. Someone else used it in a similar in another song, only sped up. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:13, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hm. Only sample I know from "A Day in the Life" is in Bowie's "Young Americans". --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 13:54, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]