Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Entertainment/2023 June 12
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June 12
[edit]I want to spend my life understanding minor scale inconsistency
[edit]Melodies in minor keys are sometimes inconsistent when they simply go up scales in certain sections. Look at this melody (we're assuming it's in C minor, but we can transpose it to any minor key):
G-A-B, G-A-B, C-D-E♭, C-D-E♭, F-G-A♭... (Yes, the melody continues, but I'm stopping here because this is sufficient to let you know what I'm talking about.)
The chord progression that this melody (in C minor) can be accompanied by is V-V-i-i-iv. This you should have no trouble understanding. But the real thing is that this is an ascending scale for more than an octave; specifically the C minor scale (starting on the dominant) using the melodic minor scale at the beginning and the harmonic minor scale later on. Do you know any melodies that have scales that are inconsistent in different parts?? Georgia guy (talk) 18:27, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
- I would not call it an inconsistency. The minor scale gives composers and improvisers more freedom while staying in the same key, and they are not loathe to explore the possibilities. --Lambiam 20:24, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
- Well, you could spend your life just trying to understand the Harmonic minor scale article and you would be none the wiser. My thoughts on WP articles about music theory are unprintable. I came across this forum page at Ultimate Guitar - read all the way through, it gets quite funny towards the end. MinorProphet (talk) 22:30, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
- What's stopping you from working to improve those articles? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:38, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
- Could it be a lack in music-theory background? I bet you could waste your life just trying to understand our Simplicial homology article. Do you perhaps see an impediment to you working to improve it? --Lambiam 13:58, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
- I have a good knowledge of music theory; it's just the fact that some things catch my attention so easily. The harmonic minor scale is usually used for standard music in minor keys. But the melodic minor is often used for passing tones, especially the 6th note when accompanied by the V chord or the 7th when accompanied by the iv chord. Georgia guy (talk) 15:03, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
- For the record, I responded to BB's question "What's stopping you ...?", in which "you" referred to MP, not Gg. --L. 22:44, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
- Many of our mathematics articles are opaque to me, despite my having some mathematical education. (Simplicial homology happens to be one that I think I could, with study, understand well enough to make marginal improvements.) I have worked on many geometry articles, and worry a bit that they are similarly bewildering to the uninitiated; how would I know? :( —Tamfang (talk) 15:49, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
- The scale isn’t inconsistency, there’s just a key change you didn’t know about. Pablothepenguin (talk) 16:13, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
- What key change?? The above melody is in C minor; it uses an ascending scale starting on the dominant (G) and goes up a 9th; the 2nd and 9th are not the same (A and A♭.) (These notes are parts of the C meloidc and harmonic minor scales respectively.) Georgia guy (talk) 16:30, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
- Key change is from C melodic minor to C harmonic minor. It could also be described as a modal modulation. Pablothepenguin (talk) 16:34, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
- Melodic minor to harmonic minor is generally not considered a key change. There is no notion of a shift in tonality, and the alternation can occur fleetingly in a single phrase. Compare the use of altered chords or borrowed chords, also generally not considered modulation. --Lambiam 01:17, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
- Key change is from C melodic minor to C harmonic minor. It could also be described as a modal modulation. Pablothepenguin (talk) 16:34, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
- What key change?? The above melody is in C minor; it uses an ascending scale starting on the dominant (G) and goes up a 9th; the 2nd and 9th are not the same (A and A♭.) (These notes are parts of the C meloidc and harmonic minor scales respectively.) Georgia guy (talk) 16:30, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
- The scale isn’t inconsistency, there’s just a key change you didn’t know about. Pablothepenguin (talk) 16:13, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
- I have a good knowledge of music theory; it's just the fact that some things catch my attention so easily. The harmonic minor scale is usually used for standard music in minor keys. But the melodic minor is often used for passing tones, especially the 6th note when accompanied by the V chord or the 7th when accompanied by the iv chord. Georgia guy (talk) 15:03, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
- Could it be a lack in music-theory background? I bet you could waste your life just trying to understand our Simplicial homology article. Do you perhaps see an impediment to you working to improve it? --Lambiam 13:58, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
- What's stopping you from working to improve those articles? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:38, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
We might as well be discussing, How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Literally no-one in this whole wide world understands the totality of scales, modes and keys or where they came from. The knowledge has been lost to time immemorial. Let the dry-as-dust academics argue among themselves unto their well-deserved graves: just play that tune, dude, and ask not whence the melody comes. MinorProphet (talk) 11:49, 15 June 2023 (UTC)