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March 23

Disputed name

On the page Juan Botasso there are both forms Botasso and Bottaso. What is the name of the Argentine footballer? --2001:B07:6442:8903:B080:5017:5893:80A (talk) 16:26, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It was changed from Botasso to Bottaso almost 13 years ago, by an IP claiming to be a relative.[1] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:34, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Dont believe to all: You dont know who is hided behind anonymous ip, please... --2001:B07:6442:8903:B080:5017:5893:80A (talk) 16:46, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It probably would have been reverted almost immediately if someone had seen it. As it is, it's ripe for an undo, to at least make the article title and contents consistent. Then someone should figure out which one is right. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:48, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.fifa.com/worldcup/archive/uruguay1930/matches/match/1085/#match-lineups --2001:B07:6442:8903:386D:A65C:A174:FBF5 (talk) 16:50, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the source. I changed it to Botasso. The sources in general seem kind of inconsistent. But until someone presents more evidence, I think it needs to be Botasso. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:00, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The photograph from a 1927 issue of El Gráfico is a relatively strong indication for the spelling Bottaso. Although the surname Botasso is far more common, the surname Bottaso does occur in Argentina.^[2] A copying error, whether arising from lack of attention or a Verschlimmbesserung, may change a correct but less common name into an incorrect but more common one. The grandson IP geolocates to a spot very close to Quilmes, lending likelihood to the claimed descendence. --Lambiam 09:51, 24 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That could well be the case. But someone claiming to be a relative doesn't qualify as a reliable source. The rules were maybe a bit less strict in 2008 when the IP made his only edit. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:32, 24 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So we can't decide which spelling is right, since there are a substantive number of reliable sources for either alternative. But we cannot escape making a choice ourselves for the page title. Absent a single, obvious name that is demonstrably the most frequently used, plausibility, as supported by otherwise disallowed original research, becomes IMO an allowed consideration. Then it makes a difference whether that IP is from Quilmes or from Butthead High in Butteville. --Lambiam 21:53, 24 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Botasso sound like more argentinan to me than Bottaso... --2001:B07:6442:8903:F9FF:889E:F3D1:F3D6 (talk) 17:01, 26 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You like Botasso, and I like Bottasso. Let's Call the Whole Thing Off. Clarityfiend (talk) 19:18, 27 March 2021 (UTC) [reply]

Or if you're Dan Quayle, "You like Botasso, and I like Botassoe... ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:00, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This entire discussion reminds me of the poem around the name Elliot:

The double L and single T Descent from Minto and Wolflee, The double T and single L Mark the old race in Stobs that dwell. The single L and single T The Eliots of St Germains be, But double T and double L, Who they are nobody can tell.

--Jayron 32 17:52, 29 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ellington/Hodges theme reference?

There's a theme used by Duke Ellington in his record "The Flaming Sword". It's a unison soli for all the horns near the end (about 2 minutes and 40 seconds in), and it gets used again at the very beginning of Johnny Hodges's recording of "Take the A Train" (off the album "Duke's in Bed"). Is this line a reference to some other piece of music, or is it actually originally from the Ellington record? It seems to have a sort of out-of-place character in that recording, like it's joking about or mocking a known theme.

Lemon car 7 (talk) 18:41, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It must have been a different take of "The Flaming Sword" than this one, where I hear no such horn unison. And in Johnny Hodges's cover of "Take the A Train" I hear nothing that sounds out of place. Can you provide links? --Lambiam 10:03, 24 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No, I think those are the takes Lemon car 7 is talking about. I added a timestamp to the specific part in The Flaming Sword. It's clearly the same pattern, though not completely identical, and it's played at a much slower tempo in Johnny Hodges's intro to "Take the A Train". I don't know whether this riff was referring to something even older in the faster "Flaming Sword" version, or whether it was an original there. Regarding the "out-of-place character", keep in mind that not every Ellington scholar appreciated "The Flaming Sword". In The Swing Era: The Development of Jazz, 1930 - 1945, Gunther Schuller calls it a "mild failure (...) with its fake Mexicanisms and tacky Latin Quarter production number routines (...) material unworthy of Ellington to begin with." ---Sluzzelin talk 16:05, 24 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Another thing occurred to me, but it's pure speculation. Hodges might actually be the creator of that part of "The Flaming Sword", and now added it to the Duke's theme song (while the Duke is in Bed :-) — it wouldn't be the first time an improvised tune of his found its way into a Duke Ellington composition, without Hodges getting any credit. Other examples are, allegedly, "I Let a Song Go Out of My Heart", "I'm Beginning to See the Light" or "Don't Get Around Much Anymore". I've seen performances of the Duke Ellington Orchestra, where Hodges makes gestures toward the Duke, asking for more money/credit while the audience is applauding one of his solos. Adam Gopnik writes a bit about this in "Two Bands — Duke Ellington, the Beatles, and the mysteries of modern creativity." (And it pains me to point this out, because I'm such a huge admirer of Duke Ellington's, but there it is). ---Sluzzelin talk 23:56, 24 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]