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March 6

In the land of Mordor where the shadows lie

What does "lie" mean to a native speaker? To me (not a native speaker, and not even a fluent speaker), it could mean three things, of which the most probable is that "the land of Mordor is full of shadows", but it could also mean "in Mordor, the shadows say untrue things", in other words, "shadows lie". Probably it could even mean "the shadows are reclined on the ground". I know it's not possible to know exactly what Tolkien meant here, I'm not really looking for an in-depth analysis here, just what does it mean to an ordinary English-speaker? Thanks. -- 193.37.212.126 (talk) 20:25, 6 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The use of lie here could mean "to be located in a place" (i.e. "the book lies on the shelf"), also "Where <blank> lie" is idiomatic in English to mean "where <blank> lives", however I would not put it past Tolkien to use the term as a double entendre, carrying the double meaning "to tell an untruth" as well as "to be located in a place". Such double entendre are a tradition in English, my favorite of which is the opening lines of Richard III (play) "Now is the winter of our discontent/Made glorious summer by this sun of York" where "sun of York" is a double entendre meaning both "The yellow orb that warms us in summer" and "son of York", as in Richard III was literally the son of the Duke of York. I could totally see Tolkien doing that with the word "lie". --Jayron 32 20:36, 6 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Jayron32: Suggest than in his soliquay, Richard is referring to his brother, who was (obviously) a "son of [the duke of] York" but was also King. Cheers, ——SN 54129 11:44, 13 March 2020 (UTC) [reply]

Maybe, but I think he was just using archaic and poetic language. See Wiktionary:lie: 1. Verb (intransitive) To rest in a horizontal position on a surface. Examples:

"How heavily the shadows lie in the rock-close" (1838) [1]

"Deeper still, the shadows lie" (1866) [2]

"While soft on icy pool and stream their penciled shadows lie" (1833) [3]

"Oft when the moon looks from on high, And black around the shadows lie" (1790) [4]

"Life may glide into the great ocean where the shadows lie; and the spirit, without, guile, may be severed from its mansion" (1839) [5]

Alansplodge (talk) 23:43, 6 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, per Alansplodge, the literal usage is like "lie down on a bed", and also "lie in wait" (stay low and out of sight while waiting to ambush someone/something; the "lie" in this phrase is metaphorical). Think of a cat staying near the ground outside a mouse hole, waiting for the mouse to come out so it can pounce. So the line from the poem evokes a sense of a darkness in Mordor, waiting to do something bad when the right opportunity comes. 73.93.153.19 (talk) 07:53, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nitpick - did Tolkein actually say that, though? The closest I'm aware of is in The Fall of Gil-galad, which ends with the lines "[F]or into darkness fell his star / in Mordor where the shadows are." No lying! Matt Deres (talk) 14:21, 9 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's from the verses describing the Rings of Power. See the pull quote at the top of Rings of Power#Fictional history. Deor (talk) 16:12, 9 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

D'oh. Remembered the obscure reference, but not the obvious one. Typical! Matt Deres (talk) 17:10, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sadly, to most native speakers these days, lie means one thing and one thing only: to knowingly tell an untruth. Lay is now the default present and continuous past tense word for becoming horizontal, no matter whether used transitively (He lays his daughter down on the bed) or intransitively (He was laying in the middle of the road). I refuse to comply with this rubbish. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:19, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Hearing that makes me so upset that I have to go lie down. ;) 73.93.154.97 (talk) 01:31, 11 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]