Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Entertainment/2019 March 8
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March 8
[edit]I've asked a question at the Talk page for Honus Wagner, but that page appears not to be frequently monitored, so I'm trying again here:
- == Discrepancy in Statistics ==
- The first (unattributed) set of statistics shows 327 strikeouts, while the Baseball-Reference.com set shows 737 SO. Which if either number is correct? That looks like a typo. And what's the origin of the first set? Milkunderwood (talk) 08:23, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
- No idea where the number 237 came from, but Baseball-reference.com is the most reliable site for statistics, so I would use theirs. There is some discrepancy in published stats for players of that era, as researchers are continually pouring over the available records to correct mistakes, but nothing in the range of 400 strikeouts! I expect as well that it was a typo. --Xuxl (talk) 13:08, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
- For the benefit of ESL readers who might be confused, Xuxl almost certainly meant 'poring', not 'pouring'. Muphry's Law stikes again! {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.123.27.125 (talk) 13:20, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
- You are absolutely correct. I'll let it stand so that your comment continues to make sense.--Xuxl (talk) 15:25, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
- For the benefit of ESL readers who might be confused, Xuxl almost certainly meant 'poring', not 'pouring'. Muphry's Law stikes again! {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.123.27.125 (talk) 13:20, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
- No idea where the number 237 came from, but Baseball-reference.com is the most reliable site for statistics, so I would use theirs. There is some discrepancy in published stats for players of that era, as researchers are continually pouring over the available records to correct mistakes, but nothing in the range of 400 strikeouts! I expect as well that it was a typo. --Xuxl (talk) 13:08, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
- Retrosheet[[1] shows 735 in regular season play, plus 6 more in World Series play.[2] In any case, 737 is a lot closer than 327. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:02, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
- Definitely a typo, mistakenly restating the batting average as the strikeout count. It was posted over 10 years ago, by a user who hasn't been active in over four years. Good catch![3] ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:14, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks. I've blanked the typo in the upper table, but I wonder if that entire 1st table should be removed, since it has no attribution at all. Milkunderwood (talk) 18:04, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
- I advise checking the Ty Cobb article to see how (or if) attribution was handled. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:45, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks, Bugs - the corresponding table at Ty Cobb does give attribution, to MLB.com - so I can add that to Wagner's page. But check this out: [4] which does indeed show 327 career SO, but counting only 1910-1917, with blanks for all earlier seasons. So I can also restore that number, but will have let somebody who understands the reason for the discrepancy add any explanation. Milkunderwood (talk) 21:28, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
- I put only that one number back in; but it appears there may be other small discrepancies in the table from what's presently shown at MLB.com. I don't even know what all those abbreviations stand for, much less what they are measuring. Milkunderwood (talk) 21:39, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
- When presumably reliable sources disagree, you can list both or all of them. Numbers can get out of whack, and not just from a century ago. Retrosheet's front page lists corrections which can pertain to recent or long-ago errors. A few years ago, there somewhat of a brouhaha about Ty Cobb's career hits total. The long-standing official tally was 4,191, which is the number Rose surpassed in Cincinnati. But the more accurate number turned out to be 4,189, which Rose surpassed in Chicago a few days earlier. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:42, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
- MLB only counts certain stats (most notably RBIs) starting with a specific year, based on when they became "official" stats. This results in quirky number in certain cases, including this one, as apparently, batter strikeouts are treated that way. Baseball-Reference bases its totals on reconstructed numbers for seasons before the stats became official. These represent the "consensus" numbers among researchers. For recent players, there's no problem using mlb stats, as these will be the same as those in other sources, but for players from before 1920, B-Ref is much more comprehensive. My recommendation would be to use Baseball-Reference numbers for the entire table and use Wagner's B-Ref page as the reference. Xuxl (talk) 18:26, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
- Before jumping to conclusions, it would be good to see where Retrosheet[5] and Baseball-Reference differ on Wagner[6], and see if the reason is evident. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:38, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
- And by the way, both of them now say 735 career strikeouts for Wagner. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:46, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
- Before jumping to conclusions, it would be good to see where Retrosheet[5] and Baseball-Reference differ on Wagner[6], and see if the reason is evident. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:38, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
- MLB only counts certain stats (most notably RBIs) starting with a specific year, based on when they became "official" stats. This results in quirky number in certain cases, including this one, as apparently, batter strikeouts are treated that way. Baseball-Reference bases its totals on reconstructed numbers for seasons before the stats became official. These represent the "consensus" numbers among researchers. For recent players, there's no problem using mlb stats, as these will be the same as those in other sources, but for players from before 1920, B-Ref is much more comprehensive. My recommendation would be to use Baseball-Reference numbers for the entire table and use Wagner's B-Ref page as the reference. Xuxl (talk) 18:26, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
- When presumably reliable sources disagree, you can list both or all of them. Numbers can get out of whack, and not just from a century ago. Retrosheet's front page lists corrections which can pertain to recent or long-ago errors. A few years ago, there somewhat of a brouhaha about Ty Cobb's career hits total. The long-standing official tally was 4,191, which is the number Rose surpassed in Cincinnati. But the more accurate number turned out to be 4,189, which Rose surpassed in Chicago a few days earlier. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:42, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
- I put only that one number back in; but it appears there may be other small discrepancies in the table from what's presently shown at MLB.com. I don't even know what all those abbreviations stand for, much less what they are measuring. Milkunderwood (talk) 21:39, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks, Bugs - the corresponding table at Ty Cobb does give attribution, to MLB.com - so I can add that to Wagner's page. But check this out: [4] which does indeed show 327 career SO, but counting only 1910-1917, with blanks for all earlier seasons. So I can also restore that number, but will have let somebody who understands the reason for the discrepancy add any explanation. Milkunderwood (talk) 21:28, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
- I advise checking the Ty Cobb article to see how (or if) attribution was handled. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:45, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks. I've blanked the typo in the upper table, but I wonder if that entire 1st table should be removed, since it has no attribution at all. Milkunderwood (talk) 18:04, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
- Definitely a typo, mistakenly restating the batting average as the strikeout count. It was posted over 10 years ago, by a user who hasn't been active in over four years. Good catch![3] ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:14, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
- It might be time to move this section to the Wagner talk page, now that you've got the attention of some interested parties. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:43, 9 March 2019 (UTC)