Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Entertainment/2018 July 16
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July 16
[edit]Here From the article (under the map of Europe): "Map of winners. Germany: twice as West Germany and once as united Germany, Russia as Soviet Union and Czech Republic as Czechoslovakia". Why not "Czechia and Slovakia as Czechoslovakia"?Ericdec85 (talk) 15:20, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
- Because UEFA and FIFA consider Czechia the successor of Czechoslovakia, and Slovakia a separate team. It also doesn't say: "Russia, Ukraine, Kazakhstan and a dozen more countries as Soviet Union". See List of men's national association football teams#Former national football teams. --Theurgist (talk) 15:31, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
- No, you are wrong. This has been discussed several times on the article's talk page. The answer is that "UEFA and FIFA consider the Czech Republic to be one of the successors to the record of the former Czechoslovakia; they also consider Slovakia to be a successor, but since Slovakia has not reached the final of the European Championship as an independent nation (whereas the Czech Republic did in 1996), we don't list them in the table." --Viennese Waltz 15:35, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
- According to FIFA, the Czech Republic has 9 appearances in the World Cup (which includes 8 as Czechoslovakia), while Slovakia has just 1 (independently in 2010). I think UEFA treats them the same way. I'm not arguing whether this is fair or not. The Czechoslovak squad which won the Euro Championship in 1976 was composed mainly of Slovak players. --Theurgist (talk) 15:51, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
- To the point, the "why don't they" is insignificant. All that matters is they do. Somebody, who's job it was to make these sorts of decisions, for reasons of their own, decided that the Czech records would include Czechoslovakia, but that the Slovak records would not. That any Rando on the internet, long after that decision-maker made this decision, should have some reason why they shouldn't, is irrelevant and pointless. Decisions are made and history moves forward, ex-post-facto rationales have no bearing on it at all. --Jayron32 02:43, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
- For clarity are you saying that previous discussions on Talk:UEFA European Championship establish this? Of so, that's quite relevant. Can you either link to the discussions or sources that establish it? I found where the quote came from Talk:UEFA European Championship#Finalists table, but it doesn't provide any links to previous discussions, nor any sources that establish it. I found other discussions where the issue came up including Talk:UEFA European Championship/Archive 1#West Germany or Germany?, Talk:UEFA European Championship/Archive 1#Current editwar, Talk:UEFA European Championship/Archive 1#USSR and Yugo, Talk:UEFA European Championship/Archive 1#predecessors but none of them seem to establish that fact. The one source I saw mentioned that was potentially relevant is [1] which establishes that UEFA may consider Czechia as a successor to Czechoslovakia, but provides no clarity on Slovakia. Actually I don't even see where anyone made the claim that UEFA or FIFA consider Slovakia to be a successor to Czechoslovakia (on the UEFA championship talk page), before it was simply stated as fact recently. Nil Einne (talk) 11:46, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
I've looked a bit wider and found Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 99#UEFA Euro 2016 qualifying Czech Republic & Slovakia Talk:UEFA Euro 2016 qualifying#Continuous editing of the notes on qualified teams, Talk:2010 FIFA World Cup qualification#Slovakia's appearance at the 2010 world cup is their first and not their 9th, Talk:UEFA#Slovakia, Talk:UEFA Euro 2016 qualifying/Archive 1#Slovakia's record in past Euros, Talk:FIFA World Cup/Archive 5#Edit request from 123.20.47.192, 20 September 2011, Talk:2010 FIFA World Cup/Archive 1#slovakia's WC history, Talk:Czechoslovakia national football team#Czechoslovakian football history = Czech Republic football history?, Talk:UEFA Euro 2016/Archive 1#Slovakia and Czech Republic and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 31#FIFA attributes the honours of Czechoslovakia to both Czechia and Slovakia but am no clearer.
From reading these discussions which linked to sources (but not checking the sources since I can't be bothered digging up all the archives), it sounds like both FIFA and UEFA have at times listed Slovakia as a successor to Czechoslovakia e.g. by listing Czechoslovakia's previous records as Slovakia's. But at other times they have not. The same page seems to chop and change as to whether it lists Czechoslovakia's records under Slovakia, let alone other pages or info. Heck even Czechia doesn't always seem to inherit Czechoslovakia's records. Notably none of these link to any official FIFA or UEFA position that I saw. (I think there is one for Serbia.)
BTW I also came across Talk:UEFA Euro 2016#Slovakia debut?, Talk:2014 FIFA World Cup qualification#Qualification table, Talk:Serbia national football team/Archive 1#Only Serbia, Talk:FIFA World Cup/Archive 4#Successor states/Inheritors of records, Talk:UEFA#disputed/contradiction section, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 100#RfC on a football-related article, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 21#Result maps, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 21#Successor nations, Talk:Northern Ireland national football team#First Game, etc and a few more I read but seemed too unimportant to link but ignored these as while they may make claims, they don't seem to link to any relevant sources for the Slovakia issue. (Some do provide sources for others including Czechia.) This actually sounded hopeful but there was nothing Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 61#UEFA Euro qualification (again).
Nil Einne (talk) 12:48, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
Although I'm still not going to dig up every archive page, looking more carefully most of the above discussions rely on the same pages anyway. And it may be there was only on set of pages that changed, FIFA's possibly sometimes in 2011. So as an example of what I'm referring to using archive links:
The current FIFA pages only gives Czechia Czechoslovakia's records as noted above [2]/[3] [4]/[5]. (These didn't archive that well, but look for "FIFA World Cup".) However in the past, Slovakia (and Czechia) received Czechoslovakia's records [6] [7], note that these are older versions of the link after the / earlier. Meanwhile for the 2010 World Cup, FIFA produced this document [8] which says Slovakia is a newcomer while concurrently (not exact dates, but someone in one of the linked discussions says it was the case) still saying they had 8 previous appearances on their page about Slovakia [9]/[10].
Then these pages only has records for Czech Republic from 1992 onwards [11]. Slovakia had 1939 to 1944 then 1992 onwards [12]. And no, this wasn't because they were missing stuff from those intermediate years [13]. The live score pages that replaced (they redirect) those match pages have scores from 1903 for Czech Republic [14] including the Czechoslovakia period. But for Slovakia only the 1939 to 1944 period [15] then the 1992 onwards as before. (Not a great fan of archive.is/today/whatever given their history here on wikipedia but needs must for these pages.)
The current UEFA pages gives neither team Czechoslovakia's records [16] [17]. However in the 2016 season pages to this day, the Czech Republic's best result was "winners 1976 (as Czechoslovakia)" [18] while Slovakia "never qualified" [19]. Maybe this shouldn't be that surprising since UEFA also says the Czech Republic FA itself joined UEFA in 1954 and FIFA in 1907 [20] while the Slovakia FA in 1993 and 1994 [21].
Meanwhile these history pages do effectively give the records to both Czech Republic and Slovakia although are clear when it was as Czechoslovakia [22] [23]. These would actually be decent pages were it not for the fact that UEFA was just as schizophrenic as FIFA about whether or not to count Czechoslovakia under Slovakia and Czech Republic.
- According to FIFA, the Czech Republic has 9 appearances in the World Cup (which includes 8 as Czechoslovakia), while Slovakia has just 1 (independently in 2010). I think UEFA treats them the same way. I'm not arguing whether this is fair or not. The Czechoslovak squad which won the Euro Championship in 1976 was composed mainly of Slovak players. --Theurgist (talk) 15:51, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
- No, you are wrong. This has been discussed several times on the article's talk page. The answer is that "UEFA and FIFA consider the Czech Republic to be one of the successors to the record of the former Czechoslovakia; they also consider Slovakia to be a successor, but since Slovakia has not reached the final of the European Championship as an independent nation (whereas the Czech Republic did in 1996), we don't list them in the table." --Viennese Waltz 15:35, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
Why is the Electra story, which is barely even about Electra, so popular? The article said it was (with a source), but fails to explain why. I don't understand why it is such a big deal]]. Why are there so many plays about the story? It can understand why Antigone or Oedipus Rex would be popular, but why Electra? Is there any reason why scholars and playwrights are interested in this?
- @Mr. Guye: [OP]
- In part because the Electra myth represents the psychological phenomenon known as "Electra complex" -- a woman's unresolved love for her father that harms her relationships with other men (counterpoint analog to Oedipus complex). 2606:A000:1126:4CA:0:98F2:CFF6:1782 (talk) 23:00, 16 July 2018 (UTC)