Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Entertainment/2012 September 10

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September 10

Overtime golf

Today's LPGA tournament was called on account of darkness after eight overtime holes without a winner. What is the LPGA and PGA record for most overtime holes in one tournament? 69.62.243.48 (talk) 01:42, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Eleven for the PGA ("Carey" [sic] Middlecoff and Lloyd Mangrum wimped out because of approaching darkness and were declared co-winners), ten for the LPGA (Jo Ann Prentice made perfect over Kathy Whitworth and Sandra Palmer).[1] Clarityfiend (talk) 02:23, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Music that sounds similar to early black sabbath

Hi, I'm looking for artits that have a similar sound to early black sabbath (like from their Paranoid album). Early melodic-sounding heavy metal basically. Can you suggest any songs/albums for me to check out? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.254.5.240 (talk) 04:41, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple, for starters. --Viennese Waltz 05:17, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) If you go to www.allmusic.com and find Black Sabbath's page, there's a tab that says "related", that lists lots of similar artists. See here. Finding stuff that sounds like Sabbath before or at the same time as Sabbath is tough, because they really had a unique sound for their time. Other "heavy metal" acts of the time were built more on the "party band" feel, ala Led Zeppelin, Humble Pie, and Deep Purple. Sabbath got their dark sound from several sources: Tony Iommi's detuned guitar (which was done because of a gruesome injury that required him to slacken his strings so it wouldn't hurt his injured fretting hand), Geezer Butler's facination with Black Magic and darkness that informed his lyricism, and Ozzy's unique, angry, almost crying singing style. Stylistically, the genre that draws the most from Sabbath's look, feel, and sound is Melodic death metal, but like all death metal tends to be a bit heavy on the "Cookie Monster" vocals. Melodically, bands from the New Wave of British Heavy Metal has a lot similarities to Sabbath, though the punk rock influence comes through a bit more there. Judas Priest is usually considered a bit outside of the NWOBHM, but their of the right time period and sound. Of course, there's Ozzy's solo stuff, the album he did with Randy Rhodes, Blizzard of Ozz, is probably his most Sabbath-like as it came out before he (like most of heavy metal) came under the influence of Hair Metal in the mid-80s. There's also the Dio-era Sabbath stuff, if you go in for the sword-and-sorcery style of Ronnie James Dio; his earlier bands like Rainbow or later bands like Dio may be in that same ilk. Even grunge-metal crossover act Alice in Chains owes a lot, musically, to Sabbath. Hopefully, that will give you some ideas. --Jayron32 05:19, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I'd also suggest Uriah Heep (espcially their debut album, in the UK it was called "Very 'Eavy, Very 'Umble" )and the Edgar Broughton Band, if you can find any of their work as they were quite, em well, niche market... --TammyMoet (talk) 09:32, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

You might also check out the Welsh group Man, and the Deep Purple spinoff Warhorse. I could probably come up with a few more if I were at home with my record collection and not at the office! {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 84.21.143.150 (talk) 11:08, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Thinking a bit further down the line, maybe Diamond Head (band) might fit the bill. Jayron is quite right in that Black Sabbath were truly groundbreaking at the time: everything else in the UK rock field can be said to come from them, Deep Purple and Led Zeppelin. --TammyMoet (talk) 11:54, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

When you say "the UK rock field", I assume you mean hard rock/HM. There is plenty of British rock which doesn't owe anything to Zep, Purple and Sabbath. As for Zep sounding like a "party band", that's just bizarre. They also had someone who was obsessed with the occult, and I would say their sound was just as dark as Sabbath's. --Viennese Waltz 13:08, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Well, they had their occult moments, but nothing like Sabbath. Led Zeppelin's influences varied over time, but the early band basically ripped off Robert Johnson (uncredited) and other early American blues artists. Lyrically, they mined J.R.R. Tokein directly and indirectly far more than the occult. Jimmy Page expressed an interest in the occult, but it didn't inform their songwriting the way it informed Sabbath. Most of the early-to-middle Led Zeppelin songs were about getting laid, or they were about Lord of the Rings, except when they were about getting laid in Middle Earth. Later Led Zeppelin steered a ways away from Heavy Metal, into reggae and Carribean influences (Fool in the Rain, D'yer Maker). The only real connection to the occult was Jimmy Page's professed facination with it, but musically and lyrically Zeppelin and Sabbath don't share a lot, except for both being early influences on Heavy Metal. Both Ozzy and Geezer Butler used much more direct "black magic" imagery than Zeppelin did. Zeppelin's music, for the most part, lacks the dark despair that Ozzy-era Sabbath does. I mean, compare Whole Lotta Love or Black Dog or Good Times, Bad Times to Paranoid or Ironman or War Pigs. Yes, they are both seminal heavy metal bands, but they clearly established different veins of heavy metal. And not all critics and fans and other music industry people even consider Zeppelin a "heavy metal" band, watch any of the dozens of fairly recent documentaries on the topic. Seven Ages of Rock puts Led Zeppelin in their "Stadium Rock" episode, and not their "Heavy Metal" episode. Heavy: The Story of Metal discusses the controversy with including Zeppelin as a metal band. Some consider them so, some do not, but it is directly addressed as a controversial matter. Sam Dunn, who is perhaps the world's foremost academic expert on the history and influence of Heavy Metal music, and has done several documentaries and series on the genre. He counts Zeppelin as one of metals progenitors, but places them in a very different part of the Metal family tree than Sabbath. His Metal: A Headbanger's Journey is a very well done synopsis over the styles and influences of metal. And it has a really nice chart! --Jayron32 16:41, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Some early Rush sounds like Sabbath, especially this: Here Again μηδείς (talk) 00:13, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

There's also Robin Trower's Bridge of Sighs. μηδείς (talk) 00:19, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

And Pink Floyd's Careful with That Axe, Eugene, Fearless. μηδείς (talk) 00:23, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

And perhaps Iron Butterfly's In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida. μηδείς (talk) 00:27, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

For something a little harder and more Southern there's Mountain's Mississippi Queen. μηδείς (talk) 00:35, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

• Early stuff by Trouble was sometimes dismissed as a poor man's Black Sabbath, at a low point for Black Sabbath, no less. Some of their later stuff is more psychedelic, though. They were influenced by Black Sabbath, rather than developing around the same time. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:25, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Can you recommend a particular song? μηδείς (talk) 00:28, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Who sang lead in The Notting Hillbilllies "One Way Gal"?

As above. Thanks, Vranak (talk) 05:59, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

The page at www.allmusic.com for the album it comes from, here notes that Mark Knopfler sings on a few of the songs, but doesn't name that one specifically. The credits section lists all four members of the band as providing vocals, so I'm not sure we can resolve it unless it says more on the album liner notes than Allmusic has. --Jayron32 06:08, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I've listened to the song on Youbube, and I'm familiar enough with Mark Knopfler's voice to know it's not him. Comparison with a couple of songs by Brendan Croker and the Five O'Clock Shadows and Steve Phillips and the Rough Diamonds indicates pretty conclusively that it's Brendan Croker singing lead on "One Way Gal". --Nicknack009 (talk) 06:41, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! Vranak (talk) 07:42, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Ok second part, who sings the verse here, in "Will You Miss Me"? He sounds about 85 years old, but looking at the Hillbillies' lineup I don't see anyone over 42 at the time. Vranak (talk) 17:25, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

That's Steve Phillips. Here's an alternative video where he talks about and performs the song with another band. --Nicknack009 (talk) 22:39, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

60s Pyschedellic song stuck in my head

I asked at the establishment they said it was Muzak the 50s/60s channel, checked at Muzak online but that channels songname feed was down. The song had a serious and what sounded like single guitar rift throughout with a strong (possibly male) voice saying a few unitelligible words with a type of siren song female voice in the far background either repeating it or saying words with the same rythm. There was also some kind of instrument(s) to give the whole song a ghost like or supernatural quality. As far as the notes the guitar rift (which almost seemed like on a loop until the very end when is s l o w e d d o w n the pattern) was extremely similar to Jefferson Airplanes +Byrds Turn Turn Turn intro or Special Kind of Love (and I did check almost all Jefferson Airplane songs). Bad imitation here: (ultra low)dum dum . . . .dum dum dum dum(high notes instantly:)der der der (low notes) dum dumdumdumdumdumdum dum (high) der der der (all while male and then female background voice sing words to the same rythmic notes but almost behind the music, faint to hear) then at the end the pattern slows with this as the finale (low)dum dum dum dum dum dum dum (high)der . der . der . . . . der . . . der der . . .

ok after you get done laughing at this . . . please help! :-) have tried those online audio programs like midori no luck.Marketdiamond (talk) 10:26, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

If it helps think Turn Turn Turn for the guitar tone and the thing that strikes me about the guitar rift is that it is a bit gypsy, the vocals and other music isn't so much though. Marketdiamond (talk) 12:23, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Just a request for clarification...do you mean Turn Turn Turn by The Byrds, and A Groovy Kind of Love by The Mindbenders? (They have similar guitar tones, I suppose...but I'm not sure that will help because that is a typical psychedelic 60s tone...) Adam Bishop (talk) 14:11, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes exactly, to be clear it only applies to the guitar tone (how low it is usually) this is a completely different mood and song with a completely different feel (background noise and almost a Siren female voice). Guitar rift was almost on a loop throughout the whole song so it wasnt a hook or intro, loop adding to the dream or gypsy effect for me at least. Marketdiamond (talk) 15:12, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• Any one else know anything? Please help! Marketdiamond (talk) 12:57, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

My hunch is still White Rabbit, even though I know you said you'd already checked out Jefferson Airplane. Can you give any more info? - Does it have a chorus, or a middle-eight, or is the song literally the same riff all the way through? Can you remember any snippet of lyrics? Dave w74 (talk) 05:45, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Why are so many actors from Canada in the Final Destination films?

It has caught my attention, does anybody know why? I'm new to the site, if it's the wrong category, please tell me. Cooppeerr (talk) 14:07, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

They were largely filmed in Vancouver and elsewhere in British Columbia...it may have been cheaper to hire local actors or actors who were already filming other things there, especially for the sequels (2 and 3 definitely seem to be full of Canadians). Adam Bishop (talk) 14:19, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Ode to Joy

So, couple of weeks ago an IP made this edit to the Ode to Joy article, and I've no idea if it was a correction or malicious. Anybody know?--Jac16888 ^Talk 17:56, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Ode to Joy is the colloquial name for the 4th movement of Beethoven's 9th symphony, correct? Our article on that says it is in D minor.

And when I hum it in my head it sounds like it is in D Minor, but I don't know how to cite that. i.m.canadian (talk) 18:24, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I thought this would be an easy one to resolve, but far from it. I've done a Google search on "ode to joy original sheet music", and Ode to Joy images appear, transcribed into all sorts of keys! However, if the sketch found in the image on this page is from an original Beethoven manuscript, then it was written originally in D minor. --TammyMoet (talk) 18:27, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

That tiny snippet-ette isn't very indicative of anything much, Tammy. It could be something in F major.

I have the score in front of me (not the orchestral score but a piano transcription of the complete Beethoven symphonies). The last movement is long, and meanders through various keys. It starts out in D minor. but switches to D major just before the familiar "Ode to Joy" theme makes its first appearance. At this stage it's just played by the orchestra, and someone new to the piece would have no idea there are any voices involved. It goes briefly back to D minor, before returning to D major when the first solo voice (baritone) starts singing. The chorus then gets into the act and the Ode is sung for the first time. Then the music makes a turn to the left for the jaunty syncopated passage in B-flat major, marked Allegro assai vivace. Voices return, singing a variant of the Ode theme, but in B-flat. Then it returns to D major for a while. Then it moves to G major for the passage "Seid umschlungen Millionen" (Andante maestoso), but quickly modulates to D minor, then G minor, then back to D major (Allegro energico) for some time. A short interlude in B major, then back to D major till the end of the symphony.

So, if I had to pick a single or predominant key for the "Ode to Joy" part of the 4th movement, it would be D major for my money. People talk of a whole movement or a whole symphony/sonata being in a certain key; but that can be quite misleading, because if the composer actually wrote the whole thing in just the one key, it would be colourless and bland. So they usually wander all over the place, while returning frequently to the home key. If you're interested in a certain excerpt, you can't go on the official key of the symphony, or even the score of the opening bars, but you have to look at the score for that particular excerpt. Or have perfect pitch. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 20:30, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the excellent summary of what we sang yesterday with great joy, the 9th on the 9th of the 9th! (Where did I write recently that the last movement of the Mass in B minor also is in D major?) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:19, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for saying so, Gerda. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 01:00, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Ode to Joy itself is in D major. But you can pretty much write down any melody in any key if you use the appropriate flats and sharps. It's also possible to write parts of a piece in one key and other parts in another key. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:06, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Sure. I could transpose Mozart's 40th Symphony in G minor into A-flat minor (7 flats) if I wanted to, but that wasn't what Mozart wrote. Your point about "also" writing parts of a piece in one key and other parts in another key - is that substantially different from what I demonstrated above (which shows that the "Ode to Joy" is substantially in D major but is not entirely in that key)? -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 23:22, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, you can, and no, I wasn't disagreeing with you. You just happened to have posted in between the time it took me to write a reply to the OP. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:28, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Cheers. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 01:00, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Raising Arizona made it sound like a completely different tune.Marketdiamond (talk) 07:22, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Music video

I saw Dee Snyder say that the video for We're Not Gonna Take It (Twisted Sister song) (1984) was the first music video with a storyline. Either I don't understand what he means or I remember quite a few before then. In particular, it seems to me that George Harrison's Crackerbox Palace and This Song videos in 1976 set the pattern for MTV music videos. Were there ones in the MTV style before those? Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 22:41, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

This doesn't answer your question, but it's possible that Snyder wasn't aware of these Harrison videos, or was just being boastful. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:07, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

He was basically talking out of his ass. I could name a dozen other videos with clear plots and storylines before that one. "Hungry Like the Wolf" came out in 1982 and had a storyline. "Billie Jean" and "Thriller (song)" came out in 1982 and had obvious storylines. "I Want to Break Free" came out at around the same time as WNGTI and had a storyline. "Don't Stand So Close to Me" was a video with a storyline, and it came out in 1980. It wasn't like all there was were concert footage and performance videos and then "We're Not Gonna Take It" suddenly invented the narrative within music videos. --Jayron32 23:18, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I think my cable company at the time started carrying MTV in 1982, and I remember plenty of them before the 1984 video mentioned above. I've seen the two 1976 George Harrison videos recently, and they sure seemed to set the pattern for the MTV videos of the early and mid 1980s. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 00:25, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Resolved

Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 22:49, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

American Dad! Episode

What was the one American Dad episode where Stan and I think another CIA agent went and did a drug-raiding operation or something and Stan's sidekick CIA agent seduced two female guards and made love to them? Thank you. Futurist110 (talk) 23:08, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Start your research at List of American Dad! episodes, and you can follow on to individual season articles with synopses of each episode. --Jayron32 00:12, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

The episode summary for the episode in question isn't the most most detailed, so that particular scene isn't mentioned. The episode is Season 4's "Wife Insurance". American Dad!'s Wikia has more detailed info. Mingmingla (talk) 03:58, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Thank you very much. Luckily for me I already found it. :) Futurist110 (talk) 04:57, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Resolved