Wikipedia:Peer review/William Longchamp/archive1

William Longchamp

This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because…I'd like to take it to FAC and need to know what context is missing to make it intelligible for non-medievalists. Also, prose flow concerns and jargon would be helpful.

Thanks, Ealdgyth - Talk 20:15, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

I've made some edits, mostly general copyedits, but also to add some context. Sometimes it seems kind of choppy, I think because it is broken up by the references. The legacy section sometimes also seems a little disconnected, like it's a bunch of random facts stuck together. It might benefit from some more copyediting, but otherwise all the facts seem to be in order. Adam Bishop (talk) 05:31, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Malleus hasn't touched the article yet, this is pretty much all my prose working here, so that's probably part of the problem with the choppy prose. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:49, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Finetooth comments: This is interesting and generally clear, certainly broad, stable, and neutral. I made a few minor changes by adding nbsps, a pound sign, and changing a word here and there. I got confused by the sentence about the renewal of the legation and the return of Geoffrey. (See my note below). I'm doubtful about the double infobox and the resulting text sandwich. Here are a few suggestions and a couple of questions.

Infoboxes

• I'm not used to seeing two infoboxes in the same article. Would it be better to render the information in one of them as straight prose? Could the infoboxes somehow be combined?
  • the infoboxes cannot be combined, unfortunately. I can remove one, but check Nigel (Bishop of Ely) or Hubert Walter, where these two are deployed together without any fuss from the FAC crowd. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:49, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Lead

• I wikilinked pounds to "pounds sterling" in the lead and added the pound symbol to the main text, but you might want to use the pound symbol in the lead too. It looks funny to me spelled out.
  • Hm. The problem is that it's not really a "pound sterling" though. It's a "medieval pound" which is the predecessor to the pound sterling (somehow, or something like that. Currency and economic history are not my strong points...) It's probably not totally inaccurate, but in medieval history it's not unsual to spell out "pounds" rather than use the symbol. This becomes more common the earlier you go in the history. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:49, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
• Wikilink "Holy Roman Emperor"?
  • Done. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:30, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Background and early life

• Should places like Hereford, Wilton, Ross, Wales, Dover Castle, and others be wikilinked?
  • linked Ealdgyth - Talk 22:30, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
• "The family was originally of humble background, but had risen through service to King Henry II of England. The family originally was from the current village of Longchamps, in Normandy." - You might re-cast slightly to avoid starting two sentences in a row in almost exactly the same way.
  • Reworded Ealdgyth - Talk 22:30, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
• "Two of Longchamp's brothers became abbots." - Wikilink abbot?
  • done Ealdgyth - Talk 22:30, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
• "He served in Henry II's chancery before he started serving Richard." - Wikilink or briefly explain "chancery"?
  • linked and explained Ealdgyth - Talk 22:30, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Chancellor and Justiciar

• "the increase in the price of having chancery documents sealed may have been to help Longchamp recoup the cost of office" - What does it mean to "seal" documents? Who raised the price, Longchamp or the king? What was the price?
  • Clarified somewhat. You paid to have the chancery afix the great seal to your documents, in order to authenticate them. I don't know what the price increase was to, quite honestly. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:48, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
• "He sent judges throughout the country to visit the shires." - Wikilink shire?
  • done.
• "Supposedly Richard paid 1500 marks to the papacy... " - Wikilink or briefly explain "mark". Can it be expressed in pounds as well so that we have some idea how much it cost compared to the cost of buying the office of chancellor?
  • A English medieval mark is 2/3rds of a pound. Linked and added conversion to pounds. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:48, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Disputes with John

• The infobox and the Lincoln Castle image create a fairly extreme text sandwich.
• "Eventually, Walter reached a compromise between the two where Gerard was confirmed as castellan and John relinquished the castles." - "through which" instead of "where"?
  • Fixed. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:02, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
• "Longchamp's legatine commission from the papacy had expired in the spring of 1191 with the death of Pope Clement III,[18] which removed one of Longchamp's power bases.[25] By the middle of summer 1191, Clement's successor Celestine III had renewed the legation,[2] but in September 1191 Henry II's illegitimate son Geoffrey, now Archbishop of York, was arrested by Longchamp's subordinates when he landed at Dover." - I got lost here. Celestine III renewed the legation. OK, but why does it matter that Geoffrey landed at Dover? What's the connection?
  • Clarified to have the connection "... By the middle of summer 1191, Clement's successor Celestine III had renewed the legation,[2] but a further complication in Longchamp's administration happened in September 1191 Henry II's illegitimate son Geoffrey..." it was just one more complication in Longchamp's life. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:02, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Exile and return

• "Richard rewarded Longchamp with custody of Eye" - Wikilink Eye?
  • Done. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:02, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
• "Longchamp did not return to England after he left with Richard in May 1194." - This almost contradicts the first sentence in the paragraph. Did Longchamp only stay in England for parts of February and May and all of March and April? Maybe the chronology could be clarified a bit.
  • I've extensively reworked this chronology, let me know if it makes more sense? Ealdgyth - Talk 23:02, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Death and legacy

• Wikilink "Le Pin"?
  • Done Ealdgyth - Talk 23:27, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
• "Angevin possessions on the continent"- Wikilink Angevin to House of Anjou?
  • done Ealdgyth - Talk 23:27, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
• "Some have seen in the assembly that met to try Longchamp in 1191 a precursor to the gathering at Runnymede in 1215 that drew up Magna Carta." - Would it be helpful to elaborate a bit on the connection?
  • Added a bit more. See if that helps? Ealdgyth - Talk 23:27, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

I hope these few suggestions prove helpful. Finetooth (talk) 03:38, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Finetooth, I'll keep plugging away at these over the next several days, now that RL has calmed down somewhat. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:49, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Is it generally discouraged to use primary sources directly? I'm not sure if that counts as "original research" or not (I do it all the time, without really thinking about Wikipedia rules). For example, in the legacy section, it says Austin Lane Poole says Gerard of Wales said such-and-such...why not quote Gerard directly? Presumably what Gerard says is not controversial so there there shouldn't be anything special about what Lane Poole says. Same with William of Newburgh at the beginning, and others I may have missed. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:38, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't actually have editions of those works, keep in mind I was originally a Anglo-Norman specialist, and never finished grad school, so never taught, so I just don't have later primary sources. I generally avoid using primary sources except for translations of quotations, but in this case, I don't have the translations so I have to use secondary sources. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:04, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Ah, okay, that's a good point. It's also difficult when Lane Poole doesn't even say what his source is! The Gerard reference apparently comes from his Life of Geoffrey of York though. Adam Bishop (talk) 16:20, 15 October 2009 (UTC)