Wikipedia:Peer review/Theodora Cormontan/archive1

Theodora Cormontan

This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because I think it's off to good start and meets as many of the relevant guidelines as I could find, but... I'm sure there are things I've missed and some extra looking from other wikipedians can only help imrpove it. The reward (or the penalty, I suppose, depending on your point of view) is that this topic is off the beaten track and I've had to cast a pretty wide net to find (what I hope are) suitable citations. I would like to get it to some sort of finished status by the end of the month, if possible.

Any and alll feedback welcome!

Thanks, Dictioneer (talk) 15:57, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

 Doing... Brianboulton (talk) 00:37, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Note: I have started to read this, and will shortly add comments. Unfortunately, at present this review is not linked to the article's talkpage, as the correct template was not used. I'm not sure whether I can fix this, but I will try and get someone to do it. Brianboulton (talk) 20:25, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

First batch of comments

I have had no success in finding any more information on this lady from British sources. I have asked User:Tim riley, who has British Library membership, to nose around, but for the time being I am reviewing the article as it stands.

Lead

• Lead should have maximum 4 paragraphs per MOS. You could easily combine two of the existing ones.
• Bearing in mind that the lead is providing a concise overview or summary of the main article, there is perhaps a bit too much detail in the lead text at present. Here are some suggestions of detail that could be removed from the lead:

• "at age 22"
• "who had been promoted to a senior Lutheran church position"
• "including Caroline Schytte Jensen's highly regarded Katharina Månsdotters vaggvisa fôr konung Erik XIV (after the poem by Zachris Topelius)"
• No need to elaborate on the fire and bank failure. Thus: "as a result of a fire that destroyed the family home, and a major bank failure".
• all while" → "while"
• "as she and her sister moved between small towns in southern Minnesota."
• "After the death of one brother, in 1913, her household went onto the county relief rolls. After the death of the other brother". Suggest: "In 1917, after the deaths of her two brothers, Cormontan and her sister..." etc
• "by a Professor of Music"

Apart from these excisions there are a few more prose tweaks necessary. For example, in each new paragraph the subject should be introduced by name, not pronoun. Rearrange the phrasing so that successive paragraphs don't begin with "Cormontan". Avoid "ca." in the caption, and say "circa" or better still, "in about".

Early life

• The last two sentences need to be cited to a source.
• "In 1863 she moved to Copenhagen to study music." Is it possible to be a bit more specific, e.g. where did she study, under whom etc? Did she go to the Royal Danish Academy of Music or its precursor?

Music library and publishing business

• No need to repeat "in 1865" as this information has just been given.
• No need for parentheses around the explanatory information
• Year ranges, e.g. 1875–1879 need to be separated by dashes, not hyphens
• There is no justification for presenting a two-point list in bullet-point format. It needs to be redrafted in straight prose.
• The observation that "Backer Grøndahl would go on to become one the most celebrated European pianists of the 19th century" needs to be cited to a reliable source. It is advisable to stand slightly aside from paeans of praise of this kind, in favour of something like: "Backer Grøndahl was regarded by critics such as XYZ and ABC as one of the most accomplished pianists of the 19th century".

Emigration

• Keep section title short
• delete "in order" (verbose)
• "his other children, all of whom had previously emigrated" is a bit confusing. Better say: "to join those of his children who had previously emigrated." (I'm not too happy with that, either, so some thought required).
• The ages are irrelevant, but can the sister be named?
• There is uncited information in this section

Train accident and injury

• Not worth a section on its own; suggest incorporate it with "Emigration"

Residences in the US

• Again, this is not worth a section. It's mostly trivial information – I don't see any relevance in "Cormontan's older brother, C. G. V., was trained as a pharmacist and opened the Franklin Drug Store with his brother Edvard". There may be a place in the article for this residential information, but I'm not sure it is here, and further thought needs to be given.

Lawsuit

• This is not a controversy and shouldn't be indicated as such. The information follows directly on from the earlier "Train accident" section, and should be placed there.
• Suggest remove "vigorously", "a substantial amount of money at that time", "very substantial"
• I'm not sure the word "verdict" is correct in this context. Why not just "awarded her $5,000"?
• "also ordering the railroad to pay all of her legal expenses" → "The railroad was also ordered to pay her legal expenses".

That is as far as I have got at the moment. I will add comments on the remaining sections later - maybe tomorrow. Brianboulton (talk) 23:00, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi Brian, I've implemented the suggestions you've made. I'll check back here for any updates you have, or your British Library guy. Thanks, Dictioneer (talk) 00:09, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Continuing

I have made a few fixes to the earlier sections, and added some "citation needed" tags where necessary. In doing so I may have covered some of Nikki's points listed below. I think I will wait for you to deal with Nikki's points before I resume the review, otherwise things may get a little complicated for you! Please ping me again when you think you're ready for me to resume. Brianboulton (talk) 23:18, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Nikkimaria

You've said you're hoping to head for FAC, so expect these to be nitpicky!

• Immediately using state abbreviations assumes US-aware reader - better to spell out, at least on first occurrence
• Always use endashes for ranges
• Captions that aren't complete sentences shouldn't end in periods
• Don't use alt texts that are redundant to captions - either write more descriptive alts, or omit them
• Suggest formatting reflist in two columns
• File:Theodora_Cormontan_library.png would probably be PD-ineligible
• File:Ungdommens_Ven_p_106_1892.jpg: licensing tag is redlink, source should be "scanned from original" or similar, should use original rather than upload date, should mention original author (and if it isn't Cormontan, should include date of death to verify the life+70), and scanning a work does not give you copyright so your release is unnecessary
• File:Theodora_Cormontan_Publication.png is also probably PD-ineligible/PD-text
• "In 1886, Cormontan was forced (there was a major bank failure, and her family's residence burned to the ground) to sell her music business" - could this be rephrased to avoid the large parenthetical?
• Possible to provide conversions for dollars to modern amounts?
• "forcing her to give up voice recitals" - to this point we haven't mentioned that she sang
• "19th century musical culture" - should be 19th-century
• "specialized in the her own works"?
• Schytte-Jensen or Schytte Jensen?
• Is Dedekam worth a redlink?
• "the highly regarded Katharina Månsdotters vaggvisa fôr konung Erik XIV" - suggest including a brief descriptor of this work (is it a song? a hymn? etc)
• Don't include apostrophes in decades
• Should link George Bernard Shaw
• "Sweden, Denmark. Germany and Russia" - punctuation. And why not Norway?
• If "Ungdommens Ven" is italicized in article text, it should be in caption also
• Should hymnal title be italicized?
• Should link Red Cross and Farmer's Institute
• There appears to be some overlap between various sections - train accident in both Emigration and Musical career, first paragraph of Changes with several other sections, etc
• Suggest splitting Legacy into separate section
• Link Packard organ, county relief (does this mean Social Assistance?)
• Are the Norwegian Lutheran Church of America and the United Norwegian Lutheran Church the same group?
• "the Cormontan household consisted of the four siblings" - CGV, Eivinda, Theodora, who was the fourth?
• "they lived with her her brother"?
• "they lived with her her brother (a pharmacist), and brother-in-law (a doctor)" - confused. You mention two women, Theodora and Eivinda, both of whom are unmarried. In-law suggests a married sister, who is never mentioned. Also, what happened to the in-law?
• Link Hans Christian Andersen
• "2 Norwegian composers" - use "two"
• Album titles should be italicized
• "May, 2011" -> "May 2011"
• The Jorgensens got the music written in America from Schmidt's granddaughter, but where'd they get the earlier material? Did Cormontan bring it with her when she emigrated?
• Some formatting inconsistencies in references. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:26, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Responses to above comments

Nikkimaria, I believe I've done all the ones that could be done, but I assume some responses to your suggestions are in order, based on what I've seen in other reviews. So, I'll take the comments above and add my responses, where appropriate.

Comments from Nikkimaria You've said you're hoping to head for FAC, so expect these to be nitpicky!

• Immediately using state abbreviations assumes US-aware reader - better to spell out, at least on first occurrence

done

• Always use endashes for ranges

done

• Captions that aren't complete sentences shouldn't end in periods

done

• Don't use alt texts that are redundant to captions - either write more descriptive alts, or omit them

done

• Suggest formatting reflist in two columns

done

• File:Theodora_Cormontan_library.png would probably be PD-ineligible

over 70 years? See below.

• File:Ungdommens_Ven_p_106_1892.jpg: licensing tag is redlink, source should be "scanned from original" or similar, should use original rather than upload date, should mention original author (and if it isn't Cormontan, should include date of death to verify the life+70), and scanning a work does not give you copyright so your release is unnecessary

Done

• File:Theodora_Cormontan_Publication.png is also probably PD-ineligible/PD-text

I've tried to redo most of the licensing stuff, but I'm not sure I've got it exactly right. For clarification, ALL the images used are at least 120 years old, and 3 of them are from originals in the archive in Norway. The author of the copyrighted book acknowledges these are public domain images, and asks simply that the archive be listed as the source of the original. If I need to reword the description on the wikimedia pages, just let me know what is appropriate to state for these circumstances.

• "In 1886, Cormontan was forced (there was a major bank failure, and her family's residence burned to the ground) to sell her music business" - could this be rephrased to avoid the large parenthetical?

Combined with suggestions from Brianboulton, this is reworded as: In 1886, as a result of a major bank failure and a fire that destroyed the family home, Cormontan was forced to sell her music business and emigrate with her father and sister to the United States, where she continued her musical career.

• Possible to provide conversions for dollars to modern amounts?

Difficult to do for any year before 1914 (that's how far back the US consumer price index goes). I previously had “substantial amount of money for the time,” but Brianboulton had suggested cutting the phrase due to the difficulty in documenting it plus its general vagueness.

• "forcing her to give up voice recitals" - to this point we haven't mentioned that she sang

adjusted early paragraph to add that fact

• "19th century musical culture" - should be 19th-century

done

• "specialized in the her own works"?

reworded

• Schytte-Jensen or Schytte Jensen?

Schytte Jensen, fixed

• Is Dedekam worth a redlink?

I've redlinked Dedekam, but if you think Cormontan is tough to research, there's not much on Dedekam online even in Norwegian (mainly that her father was the mayor). Can an article make FA status with a redlink?

Sure. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:37, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

• "the highly regarded Katharina Månsdotters vaggvisa fôr konung Erik XIV" - suggest including a brief descriptor of this work (is it a song? a hymn? etc)

rephrased as: ...music set to the poem by ...

• Don't include apostrophes in decades

done

• Should link George Bernard Shaw

done

• "Sweden, Denmark. Germany and Russia" - punctuation. And why not Norway?

added Norway

Check punctuation still. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:37, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

• If "Ungdommens Ven" is italicized in article text, it should be in caption also

done

• Should hymnal title be italicized?

done

• Should link Red Cross and Farmer's Institute

done

• There appears to be some overlap between various sections - train accident in both Emigration and Musical career, first paragraph of Changes with several other sections, etc

Have edited, hopefully for the better.

Suggest removing sentence beginning "She ceased giving" in Emigration, and Changes still overlaps quite a bit. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:37, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

• Suggest splitting Legacy into separate section

done

• Link Packard organ, county relief (does this mean Social Assistance?)

Done for county relief. there doesn't appear to be an article for the Packard Organ company, and I doubt it's worth a redlink, unless there's an active wikigroup working on organ companies.

• Are the Norwegian Lutheran Church of America and the United Norwegian Lutheran Church the same group?

No, the first thing Norgwegian-Americans did after setting up a church was to split off from whatever synod they had affiliated with and form their own synod, my favorite being the “Anti-Missourian Brotherhood.” :) Then they would all merge like crazy a couple decades later due to the pressures of assimilation, fading of Norwegian language, etc.

• "the Cormontan household consisted of the four siblings" - CGV, Eivinda, Theodora, who was the fourth?

Hans. I'd had his death in earlier, but cut it at the suggestion of Brianboulton.

• "they lived with her her brother"?

See below

• "they lived with her her brother (a pharmacist), and brother-in-law (a doctor)" - confused. You mention two women, Theodora and Eivinda, both of whom are unmarried. In-law suggests a married sister, who is never mentioned. Also, what happened to the in-law?

Good catch! I had it messed up. The brother-in-law was also a pharmacist (in small towns often referred to as doctor) in Sacred Heart, and the sister was Maria, the youngest. Have reworded the text and included the relevant (though slightly confusing) citation.

• Link Hans Christian Andersen

done

• "2 Norwegian composers" - use "two"

done

• Album titles should be italicized

done

• "May, 2011" -> "May 2011"

done

• The Jorgensens got the music written in America from Schmidt's granddaughter, but where'd they get the earlier material? Did Cormontan bring it with her when she emigrated?

Yes, she brought all of her hand-written compositions and copies of her published pieces. I mention that in the last sentence before the Legacy section. I can re-reference it if you think it's appropriate.

• Some formatting inconsistencies in references. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:26, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

I've had another run through and tidied up the references. If you see any remaining problems, just let me know the reference #s and I'll patch them as well. Dictioneer (talk) 21:12, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Brianboulton further comments: The article is looking in better shape now, but there are some outstanding concerns:

• The information in the "Musical career in Minnesota" section is too thin to warrant a separate main section, and is partly repetitive. I think this section should be absoebed into the "Emigration to the United States" section, which could be renamed "Career in the United States".

Done

• I notice that although early in the article you refer to Cormontan as "composing music", you don't at that stage give any indication of the type of music she composed. We have to wait until the "Dispute" and "Legacy" sections to find out the sort of music she wrote. Some description of her range of composing activities should be given in the "Music library and publishing business" section, which I believe should be renamed "Early career".

I think you must mean the section below the table-of-contents, as I mention that she is a composer of classical songs in the opening sentence. Or you may want something more specific than classical songs. I'm going with my first interpretation for now and have updated the later sections and added 'piano and voice' to the first section.

• The chronology is still confusing. For example, having seen Cormontan into a retirement home in 1917, at the end of the United States section, we find a later section, "Changes in family fortunes, retirement", which first takes us back to 1865 and ends with second account of Cormontan's retirement. This is all very confusing for the reader. In a biographical article it is important to maintain a general chronology, and to avoid repetition of events.

The original impulse was to list the other towns she had lived in, finishing in Northern Iowa. I'm not sure it's especially important, so I've deleted that paragraph. If you think it's better, I'll simply delete the move to Iowa in 1917 and keep the small towns. I've also moved the 1890s performance paragraph up, which I think helps. The main difficulty here is that the Synod dispute overlaps her US career, 1890-1911 (the last year she copyrighted a composition), but I think the dispute needs to stand as its own section. Let me know if the changes I've made to address your concern need further work.

• There is no justification for upsizing the sheet music images, and this is against WP image policy. You should return them to normal thumb representation.

I will be happy to fix this, however my level of familiarity with image processing is small. I think I have only one sheet-music image, and I assume you mean it's too large. I will re-upload it at a lower resolution, but I assume I need to keep it high-enough resolution that you can see the dedication to Rev. Haugan, at least if you click through. Let me know if this addresses your concern. 64.80.128.4 (talk) 14:06, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

• There still seems to be some looseness in the citations, with uncited information still appearing at paragraph ends. My general rule is that every paragraph should contain at least one citation, and every paragraph should end with a citation. Sometimes this is just a question of careful drafting.

Have tried to improve this along with the chronology. 64.80.128.4 (talk) 14:06, 16 March 2013 (UTC) No news from the BL. I hope these comments are helpful Brianboulton (talk) 12:39, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi Brian, I have uploaded the resized image, so I think I've incorporated all your suggested changes. When you get a chance, have a look and let me know if I've missed anything. Also, I see that I forgot to login before posting the above. Rest assured it's me! :) Dictioneer (talk) 14:36, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

OK, I had a look at your changes and now understand the policy: high-resolution file upload, use thumb tag in wikipedia articles. Thanks, Dictioneer (talk) 20:29, 16 March 2013 (UTC)