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Terry-Thomas

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Cad, bounder, rotter and an absolute shower! Terry-Thomas was one of the most popular and best-known comedians of post-war Britain. A broad and rich career on stage, television and radio, he exported his portrayal of the silly-ass Englishman from British films such as Private's Progress, Carlton-Browne of the F.O. and I'm All Right Jack to Hollywood, where he depicted an upper-class English twit in a number of films, including It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World and How to Murder Your Wife. From the height of fame and considerable fortune he was struck down with "perfidious Parkinson's" which ended his career early and drove him into poverty, where he survived on charitable hand-outs. A sad end for an iconic screen character. SchroCat (talk) 23:42, 4 July 2013 (UTC) & CassiantoTalk 23:42, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Crisco 1492

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  • especially cads, toffs and bounders - Bounders?
  • From the mid-1960s he appeared increasingly in European films, often in smaller parts, but occasionally in more substantial roles, such as Sir Reginald in the successful French film La Grande Vadrouille. - a few too many clauses
  • his career to an early conclusion - early? He had been in the business for almost fifty years at the point.
  • straightened circumstances, - Britishism, possibly euphemistic
  • —albeit wrongly— - Do the sources say this? How did they get the info?
  • his parents' marriage had begun to fail and both became alcoholics. - mixing tenses
  • His parents eventually divorced by the time Terry-Thomas had become a teenager in the 1920s. - I suggest removing either "become a teenager" (note that you use "adolescence" above, which can be read as a synonym for teenager)
  • characters including Colonel Featherstonehaugh-Bumleigh and Cora Chessington-Crabbe - TT seems to have had a fixation for hyphens (comment only)
  • his debut with the drama company with the role of Lord Trench in - any way to avoid with-with?
  • staged latterly - what's this mean?
  • In his spare time, he began playing with a local jazz band called the Rhythm Maniacs, for whom he played the ukulele. Together with his role in the band, - any way to avoid repeating "band"?
  • mews flat - worth a redlink?
  • During this time, they were hired by Don Rico, a band leader, who incorporated them into his orchestra, with Patlanski playing the piano, and Terry-Thomas acting as the compere. - commas everywhere

Many thanks for all your comments here (and for any others you may have later!) All very much appreciated as always! - SchroCat (talk) 15:20, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Radiology section is really short and should be merged.
  • Any way to provide a selected filmography in this article, rather than force readers to look elsewhere?
  • The problem I find with these lists is that it's just our POV on what should and should not be in there, unless there are sharply defined criteria that can be used. In the case of Peter Sellers, we used a list of those articles he was nominated for an award (and drive-by editors still try and add their favourite films in there); for John Le Mesurier we left no list at all, on the basis it's not possible to outline which individual works are most important. I think that with T-T we would only be putting in our favourite films, leaving it open to bloating later on. - SchroCat (talk) 19:37, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The problem is that he appeared in 95 films alone, let alone his rather revolutionary television work, as well as all his radio appearances, and including these would bloat the page to unmanageable proportions. - SchroCat (talk) 09:37, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Concur with SchroCat. I am not a huge fan of lists in non-list articles for the reasons outlined above and because of its repetition of information already given within the prose. What might be one persons favourite T-T film, is not necessarily going to be to the taste of everybody else. For example, I adore Kill or Cure and would be disappointed if it were to be omitted from a selected works list. Others would disagree with its inclusion as it might not be their favourite T-T film. — CassiantoTalk 10:01, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • From early in their marriage, Patlanski had started having affairs, a move which prompted him to do the same; - Him -> Terry-Thomas
  • During the tour, Terry-Thomas ensured - You used "ensured" last sentence as well
  • Eugene Piri playing light classical music and the Gainsborough Girls - either worth a redlink?
  • Perhaps link compassionate leave to Sick leave or another related article, for American readers?
  • compassionate leave in order to have free time while still receiving army pay. During his leave period - Leave - leave
  • compared the show, as well as appearing in some of the sketches, including his own "Technical Hitch" routine. - compared or compered?
  • shaggy dog stories - might be worth linking
  • Piccadilly Hayride ran until 17 January 1948, - might go best with the discussion of the 778 performances
  • the film was the first in which Norman Wisdom made an appearance. - relevance not quite clear
  • and the couple lived separate lives which went unreported by the press until 1957. - their lives were unreported, or their separation?
  • The Los Angeles Times retrospectively considered I'm All Right Jack and Carlton-Browne of the F.O. to have been his best works. - Whose?
  • he sought solace with Belinda Cunningham, - sounds like editorialising
  • Again in Burke's Law - Your first mention was in a footnote, so many readers are likely to have missed it
  • One of those fat cheques - Not quite encyclopedic, although I get where you're coming from
  • That was me having a thought, realizing that my thought was wrong, and forgetting to remove it here (I had questioned the use of Princess Grace when Grace Kelley was far more recognisable, then realised that was her legal name at the time) — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:40, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • continually searching for affairs while travelling on business, - For affairs could be read non-sexually (although I doubt most people would)
  • a "cheap, crude, sexed-up rehash" - of?
  • which she had given to him in her will on her death in June that year. - any other indication that the two were not too adversarial / rather amicable after divorce?
  • You write "the couple" in the second paragraph of Final years, but for the past four paragraphs it's just been T-T (even in cases where I'd expect both to be working together)
  • I've worked references to his wife into the previous one, which should make the jump a little less jarring: let me know if this is OK, or if you think it could be changed further. - SchroCat (talk) 09:21, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • A little heavy on the quotes as you go.
I'll finish the rest tomorrow. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:39, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • memorable screen moments - POV
  • peacockery duly removed!
  • underplay much of his reaction. - reaction or reactions?
  • Yep, good spot: I've tweaked to "underplay many of his reactions"
  • An excellent review as always Crisco! Thank you so much for taking the time to help us which has certainly made all the difference to the article. I would be more than happy to return any favours the next time you are after a reviewer.— CassiantoTalk 09:57, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Tim Riley

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- a preliminary couple, prior to proper read-through:

  • "Add to these pictoral advantages" - in a quote so I didn't like to amend. I doubt the source has so misspelled, but pray check.
  • "as Bertrand, the posteuring..." – this is in a quote too, and ditto, but I don't buy it.

Two other typos (not in quotes) amended. I was rather reluctant to change the Zampa Overturn. More comments shortly. Tim riley (talk) 16:43, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment on texts to end of Early post-war work: 1946–55

More soonest, but it's a gorgeous day and a post-lunch stroll seems an even more pleasing prospect than editing Wikipedia. – Tim riley (talk) 12:09, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks for this: your suggestions mostly taken up so far - I'll have a look over the others shortly, unless Cass beat's me to it. - SchroCat (talk) 12:45, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, much obliged Tim! SchroCat was quick off the mark with these, so I plan on being even quicker in round two. ...which of course I wasn't :) — CassiantoTalk 14:04, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Batch two: to the end of "European cinema: 1966–70"

  • British film years: 1956–61
    • "stealing the show from the central character" – Namely Windrush played by Ian Carmichael. I think your readers may be glad of his name in brackets after the quote. Incidentally, if you ever have a fancy to upgrade the great and good Carmichael's article, please count me in. I have modelled myself on his Bertie Wooster ever since I watched his BBC series with Dennis Price while I was a schoolboy in the 1960s.
    • "in scenes that Graham McCann considered seemed 'to highlight what was special about the other'" – this gets itself lost rather. I suggest something like "in scenes in which Graham McCann considered each actor 'highlight[ed] what was special about the other'" My wording's not ideal, but you see what I mean.
    • Court case – the narrative is rather long at more than 120 words. I'd be inclined to trim. He was nicked. He pleaded knackered. He got off. (Possibly a touch more formal in wording, but you get my drift.)
    • "series of institutional satires" – quotes not needed, I think. I confess I'm similarly addicted to such excessive use of quotation marks in my own stuff; I rely on Brianboulton to call me to order and I'm doing the same service for you whether you like it or not.
    • "He turned his back on television and radio shows of his own too" – not quite formal enough for an encyclopaedia article, perhaps? I might be inclined to say, "He also turned his back on television and radio shows of his own."
      • I went for "Turned down work on television and radio shows of his own..." No I didn't, I went with "He stopped appearing on television and radio shows of his own too..." -- CassiantoTalk 22:53, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • "with film historian Geoff Mayer" – more tabloidese unless you add the achingly-missed definite article.
  • Breaking into Hollywood: 1961–65
  • European cinema: 1966–70

Next batch a.s.a.p. I am enjoying this, though I can see the narrative is going to turn tragic from here – so very sad! I shall cheer myself up by watching SchroCat and Cassianto colliding in their haste to get to my pearls of wisdom first. Ahem! – Tim riley (talk) 22:13, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Last lot

"Quoted text. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit."

"Quoted text. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit."

  • Quote boxes – purely a personal view, but to my ageing eyes the background colour is a bit strong for the text to be easily read. The present colour is as in the top box here; I suggest HTML shade #E0E6F8, as in the lower one. But of course ignore this if you disagree.
  • Footnotes
    • Note j: I'm taking us into the far extremes of pedantry here, but your sources for the two Desert Island Discs choices are not all that accurate. See the BBC's DID website. Not that that is faultless. T-T's first choice was George Enescu's "Ciocarlia" (sic) played by Grigoraş Dinicu and his orchestra. The fifth is tricky: your source says Irving and the Philharmonia but the Beeb says Karajan and the Vienna Philharmonic. Both recordings exist, but I am inclined to believe Ross rather than the BBC, where I suspect an unvigilant cut-and-paste job. The guitar piece is Enrique Granados's "Andaluza" from Danzas españolas. More on the second programme below.
    • Note s: spelling "monacle", rather than "monocle"?
    • Note v: I reckon your source is more reliable here than the BBC site, but for "Honeysuckle Rose" Django Reinhardt was joined by Stéphane Grappelli. The Segovia piece was the same as at Note j. Otherwise I'd stick with what you already have.
      • Added SG and tweaked Segovia
  • Citations
  • Bibliography
    • As the title of Pirie's book is printed in all caps both on cover and title page, I think you are justified in following your practice elsewhere in the bibliography and giving "gothic cinema" initial capitals.

That's my lot. A fine article, and a pleasure to read (though sad, too). Let me know when you take it to FA, please. – Tim riley (talk) 11:36, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wonderful Tim, thank you very much for the excellent comments. We will surely let you know when we pitch up at FAC. -- CassiantoTalk 12:09, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Brianboulton

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As usual with long articles, I will have to tackle this in parts. Here is the first:

Lead
  • In the first paragraph: I am unsure of the two words "accompanied" and "augmented" in this context. Was it really his "voice" that was "accompanied by a monocle, waistcoat and cigarette holder"? And did the gap in his teeth "augment" his dress sense? I am trying to think of acceptable alternatives.
Early life
  • "His parents had divorced by the 1920s" - too vague; "by the 1920s" could include any date between 1920 and 1929. Presusumably the year is known?
  • Did he really use Owen Nares as his speech model when he was 10 years old?
  • Surely the words "as a boy" are redundant in a section entitled "Early Life"?
  • I am becoming confused about certain aspects of TT's background. His father, we are told, was a Smithfield butcher, which sounds a relatively humble job. Yet at the age of 13, TT attends a fee-paying public school. At the age of 16 he is seduced by the family's housekeeper. This does not sound like the lifestyle for the family of your typical Smithfield butcher. I imagine the answer is that father was the head of a prosperous butcher's business, but this needs a few words of explanation.
  • "In his spare time, he began playing with a local jazz band called the Rhythm Maniacs, for whom he played the ukulele." Suggest drop the comma and simplify to "In his spare time he began playing the ukulele with a local jazz band called the Rhythm Maniacs."
  • Are you sure about "mediums"? Has this passed the Riley test of acceptability?
Early performances
  • Is there a point in mentioning "overlooking Lord's cricket ground" - other than to make readers wonder how film extras could afford to live there (I bet not many can now)?
  • Maybe the permanent damage to his hearing deserves more than a passing mention?
  • You say: "During this time they were hired by the bandleader Don Rico, who incorporated them into his orchestra, with Patlanski playing the piano and Terry-Thomas acting as the compere"; then a line later on: "At the end of the summer of 1938 Patlanski obtained a job as a pianist with the dance leader Don Rico, and Terry-Thomas became the compere." Some duplication here.
Second World War
  • I very much doubt that the "Gainsborough Girls" are worth a redlink - unless you have plans?
  • Again "he" at start of new paragraph
  • T-T added
  • "founded" closely followed by "founded"
  • "which composed of..." Either drop the "which", or make it "which was composed of"
  • I am sure that "compassionate leave" wasn't given just to allow serving soldiers "free time" on full pay. What reason did he cook up?

More on the way. Brianboulton (talk) 22:59, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks Brian: I know your Wiki time is limited and we very much appreciate you stopping by - SchroCat (talk) 08:58, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

More from me

Early post-war work
  • Caption: I'm not sure about the description "ex-mews house". In London property terms a mews house is a mews house, regardless of the time since its associations with coaches and horses.
  • "The series reached four million viewers" – as did just about every TV broadcast in those far off, one-channel, three-hours-a-day transmissions to the sections of the country that could actually receive the signals! (just an observation)
  • "pictoral" in the quotation needs a (sic) – no such word exists in any of my dictionaries. I suppose he meant "pictorial"
  • "Terry-Thomas continued performing on radio, in shows such as Variety Bandbox, Variety Fanfare and Workers' Playtime..." – no need to repeat the names of the shows, which have been mentioned earlier in the section
  • There's something clumsy about "as well as on stage in cabaret". I suggest delete "on stage". A slimmed-down sentence would then read: "In between filming How Do You View?, Terry-Thomas continued performing on radio as well as in cabaret, in Britain and increasingly the US."
  • Misplaced semicolon after "Woolwich". And it should be "the" Finsbury Park Empire
  • "an increase in the level of arguing" does not read like mature prose. "An increase in domestic tension" perhaps?
  • "both facts"? I see only one substantive fact – their separation.
British film years: 1956–61
  • "a strict, alcohol- and prescription drug-dependent Army officer..." This seems a somewhat subjective description. Does it have a basis in a source?
  • It would be logical to reverse the sequence of the final two sentences in the first paragraph.
  • "While filming took place during the daytime, he also appeared at the London Palladium in the evenings..." Doesn't quite make sense, though I know what you intend. Thus: "Filming took place during the daytime; in the evenings he appeared at the London Palladium..."
  • According to Briers's WP article, he was TT's first cousin once removed, but if their respective fathers were first cousins, then your version is correct. Possibly worth verifying (or perhaps too marginal to bother about?)
  • There is a redundant "as well" in the last paragraph. And I'd prefer "his own television and radio shows" to "television and radio shows of his own"
  • We have "spent time" and "time spent" in successive sentences, which clunks a bit. I'd chhange the first to "Having accumulated considerable experience by appearing in British films...:"
Breaking into Hollywood
  • "He had also split from his mistress..." – "He had by then split from his mistress..."?
  • "One of those appearing in the film was Spencer Tracy, who Terry-Thomas found difficult to treat normally, calling him "an extra-special man;" A bit too longwinded. Perhaps: "One of the American stars was Spencer Tracy, whom Terry-Thomas considered "an extra-special man"
  • "sidekick" not hyphenated

Another (final) batch of comments tomorrow, if possible. Brianboulton (talk) 15:50, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Last tranche
European cinema: 1966–70
  • I am not sure how "a passion for travel" could be satisfied by "working with European film-makers", unless the films in question had exotic locations; if this was the case, then perhaps say so.
  • Isn't note "r", which seems to summarise TT's European film career, a little prematurely placed? You've not begun to discuss his European films yet.
  • "he played Sir Reginald, a stranded Royal Air Force pilot travelling through occupied France with Bourvil and Louis de Funès." I assume you mean with characters played by these actors?
  • "Terry-Thomas undertook a number of roles with the Italian cinema industry, four of which were in one film: the 1967 farce Arabella. He used "the help of wigs, moustaches and lashings of Max Factor" to play his parts,[182] which were all with Virna Lisi, who he had worked alongside during How to Murder Your Wife." Multiple confusion: does "to play his parts" refer to his four roles in Arabella, or to all his Italian film roles? Were all his Italian film roles "with Virna Lisi"? – I've looked at her filmography, and can see no sign of TT's name except for Arabella. Why is "Virna Lisi" not linked or introduced, e.g. "the Italian actress Virna Lisi"? And "who he had worked alongside" should read "with whom he had worked".
  • Do you "discuss" a villa?

Yes: now done - SchroCat (talk) 22:49, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Dealing with Parkinson's: 1971–83
  • Whose description is "cornball terror"?
Final years and death: 1983–90
  • "financial resources" rather than "finances"?
  • "refused to leave the script" - do you mean "refused to release the script"?
  • You have "went on to say" closely followed by "going on to say". These are rather clunky expressions, and I would advise you look for an alternaive.
  • The last paragraph of this section probably belongs to the "Legacy and reputation" section.
Screen persona and technique
  • "Although there were exceptions, Terry-Thomas's screen characters were similar". Needs a bit of qualification, e.g. "were generally similar"
  • Is it necessary to link "stunts"?
  • "For films such as A Matter of WHO and Bachelor Flat he would do most of his own stuntwork, and later said "I like to do my own stunts". I am sure this can be expressed without the awkward repetition. Also, get rid of the inappropriate subjunctive: "he did", not "he would do".
Legacy and reputation
  • I thought that "Dick Dastardly" was based on Richard Nixon (just a side comment)
  • "The programme was also the first to use regular BBC announcers as foils in comic sketches" Slightly reword to make it clear that "the programme" is How Do You View - the previous sentence was primarily about Up Pompeii!.

Final comment: I have not been able to give the text the close attention I would have liked, and there may be a few issues brought up at FAC - nothing oppose-worthy, I'm sure, but be prepared. It may be worth doing a final ce run. As usual, this is a very comprehensive theatrical biography which I think depicts the man very well. Well done. Brianboulton (talk) 21:14, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks Brian: your thoughts and comments are much appreciated and we'll both take a further careful reading before going along to FAC. Thanks again - SchroCat (talk) 21:02, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Closing PR

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Many thanks to all who took part: your time, efforts and comments are all much appreciated - SchroCat (talk) 10:46, 15 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Same goes for me. A sterling review by all who took part. Many thanks! -- CassiantoTalk 15:57, 15 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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