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Swaminarayan

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I list this article along with User:AroundTheGlobe and User:World. This article is about Swaminarayan, the founder of a modern Hindu sectm - Swaminarayan Sampraday. The article passed Ga in July. We need comments keeping WP:FA? in mind. How close is it to FA. Comments are required about layout, coverage, jargon (if any) and anything else you see that would improve the article. Thanks, Redtigerxyz Talk 05:30, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Comments by Abecedare

I'll list my comments as I make a first-pass read through the article. Since this is headed towards FAC, I'll be picky, but take my comments only as suggestions

  • Lede
  • The Gujarati spelling does not match the Devanagari/IAST (i vs ī in Svāmīnrāyaṇa)
  • The birth date has no reference in the lede or later.
  • Swaminarayan Faith or Swaminarayan faith ?
Replaced with Swaminarayan Hinduism. --Redtigerxyz Talk 11:37, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nara Narayana -> Nara-Narayana ?
  • "Also known by the names ..." The sentence seems misplaced and spoils the flow. For example the Ghanshyam Pande name is being introduced twice. Can the "also known" sentence be moved out of, or further down, the lede ?
  • West Indian is arguably ambiguous.
  • "into the Uddhav Sampraday" Explain what type of thing is "Uddhav Sampraday" as in "into the sect Uddhav Sampraday". Why is Uddhav Sampraday italicized ?
  • "... taught the Swaminarayan mantra." At this stage it seems that the reader is expected to know what is meant by the Swaminarayan mantra. May be better to say something like, "introduced a new mantra: the word Swaminarayan" (not quite satisfactory either)
  • From here onwards -> Henceforth ?
  • "he came to be known as ... was regarded" Unnecessary change of voice; remove "was".
  • "Uddhav Sampraday henceforth came to be known" repetitive phrasing. Reword. Why is "Uddhav Sampraday" italicized in this instance ?
  • A reader is likely to be confused by Swaminarayan Faith vs Swaminarayan Sampraday at this stage ?
  • "The Swaminarayan Sampraday is based on Vedic scriptures." Seems to be a non sequitur.
Removed. --Redtigerxyz Talk 11:54, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Swaminarayan had a good relationship with the British Imperial Government and had followers not only from Hindu denominations, but also adherents of Islam and Zoroastrianism as well." These are two distinct properties; break up into two sentences.
  • "also ... as well" Redundant. Also replace "adherents of" by "from".
  • "Swaminarayan authorised the composition of various new scriptures and appointed 500 paramhansas to spread his philosophy." The scriptural composition should perhaps be paired with writing of Shikshapatra, while the spread of philosophy is paired with building of temples.
  • Gadhada -> Gadhada, Gujarat ?
  • "Swaminarayan appointed" When ?
  • "the poor and women" -> "the women and the poor" ?
  • "X as well as Y apart from Z" Split into two sentences.
  • scholars -> religious scholars ? (To indicate that we are not talking about university academics)
  • "questioned the acceptance of Swaminarayan as God." That is not a criticism of Swaminarayan per se, unless Swaminaraya promoted himself as an incarnation (which hasn't been said).
"Swaminarayan himself is said to have intimated that he was a manifestation of God in a meeting with the Reginald Heber" said latter in Following --Redtigerxyz Talk 11:37, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "There have been different estimates of his following in the 21st century, ranging between 5 and 20 million." (Redundant wording.) -> "In the 21st century his following has been estimated to range between ...".
  • Childhood as Ghanshyam
  • "He was named Ghanshyam Pande by his parents X and Y in the Brahmin or priest caste of Sarvariya." Huh ?
Reworded. --Redtigerxyz Talk 13:32, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He had two brothers, Rampratap Pande, his older brother, and Icharam Pande, his younger brother." -> "He had an elder brother X, and a younger brother Y"
  • "He is said to have mastered seven scriptures". The source says that he mastered these scriptures by the age of 7. Correct.
  • "Swaminarayan was born on the occasion of Rama Navami." Poor flow. We just went from his birth through age 7, and then his birth is being mentioned again. Can reword as, "Since he was born on the occasion of ... the day is also celebrated as ..., and this date marks the beginning of the calendar" (may need some work)
Reworded. --Redtigerxyz Talk 13:32, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "... marks the beginning ...starting with ..." The second half is redundant.
  • Travels as Nilkanth Varni
  • Pancaratra doesn't link to a school of Hindu philosophy.
Pāñcharātra are primarily texts and their philosophy is Pāñcharātra --Redtigerxyz Talk 14:09, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "... the four primary schools of Hinduism" According to who ?! Also I prefer Hindu philosophy over Hinduism in this context.
  • "To find such an ashram, Nilkanth Varni asked the following five questions on the basic Vaishnava Vedanta categories" Very hard to decipher what this means. Did he know the answers and used the questions to quiz various ashrams , or were these the questions he was looking answers for ?
  • "after a 12,000-kilometre (7,500 mi) journey" Is this a fact that can be stated in the encyclopedia's voice ? I didn't find it at Williams, 2001 page 75

ch to seven yr journey

  • Leadership as Sahajanand Swami
  • "According to the sect ... are said to have " Redundant.
"According to the sect" means a sectarian belief. for NPOV. --Redtigerxyz Talk 14:09, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I meant you don't need both disclaimers/attributions in the same sentence, and the second can be safely removed. Abecedare (talk) 05:51, 4 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "name Sahajanand Swami or Narayan Muni" -> "names ... and ..." (or suggests that we don't know which name he was granted) Also, Williams, pg 17 and uses the term Vaishnava ascetic rather than sannyasa (I know that they are almost synonyms, but why translate source English into Hindi/Gujarati ?)
  • "Swami was given the leadership" Williams, pg 17 says that he was appointed the successor, which is not the same. Also check page number of citation in sentence. ch to successor, corr to 17
  • "The Uddhav Sampraday henceforth came to be known as the Swaminarayan Sampraday." Incorrect citation page number ? 240
  • "Sahajanand Swami was later known ... repeat in their rituals: Swaminarayan." Reorder to emphasize the giving of the new mantra. Currently it is mentioned just as an aside.
  • " ... even though they had no knowledge of Astanga Yoga." Need to provide adequate context/background, to explain why this is relevant.
  • "manifestation of God" Have used god, God and Supreme being interchangeably.
  • "strict on the separation of sexes" Was he strict that the sexes be separated, or not be separated ? I know the intention, but not all readers will be (compare: "the school has become strict about bullying")
he was strict that the sexes be separated. --Redtigerxyz Talk 14:09, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "consumption of meat, alcohol, or drugs, adultery, suicide" Fix punctuation or reorder/reword. Do you really need criminal in the list ?
  • "the appeasement of ghosts " ?! Did he not believe in ghosts, or did he believe that they exists but shouldn't be appeased ?
Appeasement of ghosts (bhutas) is prescribed in some Hindu schools like Tantra. --Redtigerxyz Talk 14:18, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "tantra activities" -> "tantric activities" or "tantric rituals"
  • "followers took vows" What vows ?
  • "dharma, bhakti, gnana and vairagya." Translate, else you are just stating rather than explaining his teachings.
  • "supreme person" -> "supreme being" ?
  • Reforms for the poor and women
  • "the poor and women" -> "the poor and the women" ?
  • wikilink almshouses (one word)
It is a simple English term, not so relevant here. Is a wikilink needed.--Redtigerxyz Talk 14:34, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "organized" -> "organised" Check for Indian English throughout
  • "the practice of self-immolation ..." -> "self-immolation ..."
  • extent to call" -> "extent of calling". Also the emphasis of this sentence may be unneeded.
  • Don't italicize dowry.
  • "At that time, influential and wealthy individuals educated their girls through private and personal tuition." Don't see how this is linked with the next sentence. Check.
  • "they were able to give discourses" This indicates that previously females were unable to give religious discourses due to illiteracy alone. Is that true, or were they also forbidden from doing so ?
  • "Within the faith, Swaminarayan is considered ..." What do others think ? I ask, because being a pioneer of female education is a sociological fact and not a religious belief.
  • Animal Sacrifices and Yagnas
  • brahmana links to wrong article. Previously you have used Brahmin.
  • "influenced by the Kaula and Vama Marg cults." Not clear if Swaminarayan or the Brahmin prists were the ones influenced by ...
  • "also consumed" -> "consumed"
  • "solve this problem" Can't call it a problem in the encyclopedia's voice.
  • "conducted in strict accordance with Vedic scriptures" According to who ? Didn't the Brahmin priests make the same claim for animal sacrifices ?
  • "successful in reinstating ahimsa" Redflag!
  • "devotional poems which" Comma before "which"
  • "introduced fasting and devotion" fasting I can understand, but devotion ? Was that really novel ?
  • "He conducted the festivals ... dance raas." Wordy and ungrammatical. Reword.
  • Caste system and moksha
  • "Some suggest ..." Some is too vague here and will raise reviewers' weasel radar. Do you mean scholars, followers, ...?
  • "partaking in the food ... not supported" Stilted wording. Reword.
  • paramhansas" not defined so far. Also may need to be italicized.
  • "He ate along with lower castes." Seems to contradict earlier sentence.
  • "ritual status" ?
  • "It is said that Swaminarayan dispelled the myth that moksa (liberation) was not attainable by everyone." Reword as a positive statement ?
  • "He said" -> "He taught" ?
  • Relations with other religions and the British Government
  • "Relations with other religions and the British Government" -> "Relations with other religions and with the British government" ? (Not sure)
  • "He also had a meeting with Reginald Heber," Whan ? Is this different from the 1825 meeting mentioned later ?
  • "mentions in his account ... mentioned in his account ..." Avoid repetition.
  • "gifted him with a copy" -> "gifted him a copy"
  • "a copy of the Shikshapatri." Why is this aside the first mention of the book in the article body ?
  • Temples and ascetics
  • Do you need to use mandirs instead of temples ?
  • "installed the images of various deities ... and many other images himself." Remove repetition, and what does "himself" mean ?
  • "The images in the temples built by Swaminarayan provide evidence of the priority of Krishna." Huh ?
  • "The first temple" Don't bury the link! Ditto for the other temples: see this tutorial which FA reviewers would have read.
  • Explain who Vaishnavananand Swami is. As in, "his follower/devotee/patron Vaishnavananand Swami"
  • "A temple in Vadtal followed in 1824, a temple in Dholera in 1826, a temple in Junagadh in 1828 and a temple in Gadhada, also in 1828." Reword for better flow and to reduce wordiness.
  • "Swaminarayan movement" Movement ? Is that different or synonymous with the sampraday and/or the faith mentioned earlier?
  • "From early on, ascetics have played ... Nityanan Swami" Reorder so that (1) "Paramhansas" is defined before, or in the same sentence as it is first used, and (2) Events that occured in Swaminarayan's lifetime are described before "ascetics have played a major role" and "They contribute towards".
  • Texts
  • "Essentially, Swaminarayan propagated general Hindu texts." Poor writing. Reword.
  • Shikshapatri and all other texts should be italicized throughout (it is in the MOS somewhere)
  • Shikshapatri
  • "In 1826, Swaminarayan wrote the Shikshapatri." -> "Swaminarayan wrote the Shikshapatri in 1826" Emphasize that you are telling something about the text, rather than telling something important about the year.
  • "original Sanskrit manuscript" Did the original Sanskrit verses survive ?
  • "reveared" -> "revered"
  • "summarised" -> "described" Also why is Shikshapatri is a "book of social laws that his followers should follow" being attributed to any source; is this a disputable opinion that needs attribution ?
  • "booklet containing 212 Sanskrit verses" Again, did the original Sanskrit verses survive ? Also Sanskrit is wikilinked multiple times.
  • "It is also used in daily morning ritual." "Used in " is too vague. Specify how and by whom as far as possible. For example, "verses 12-15 from the text are recited by women as part of the morning rituals" (or whatever)
  • Vachanamrut
  • "the four essentials  ??? Hindu scriptures" Missing word (path, means ? ) ? Also "Hindu scriptures describe" is a very vague description for an encyclopedic article. Alsmost any statement can be ascribed to unnamed "Hindu scriptures"
  • "attain salvation" Why not "attain moksha (salvation)" to be consistent with the rest of the sentence.
  • Death and succession
  • Ichcharam is transliterated as Icharam earlier. Be consistent.
  • "Prior to his death, ...brother Ichcharam, was appointed acharya of the Vadtal Gadi." reword to avoid repetition of the same facts twice.
  • "several divisions occurred with different understandings of the leadership succession." Reword for clarity.
  • No need to italicize "Maninagar Swaminarayan Gadi Sansthan".
  • be consistent in italicizing "acharyas"
  • Following
  • Reorder the first two sentences of the Following section in chronological order.
  • "the congregation was recorded to be five million" Need to specify who recorded this, since the number is disputed by the Indian Express estimate.
  • "According to recent studies in England alone,..." -> "According to recent studies, in England alone ..." (We are talking about the followers, not the studies, being in England)
  • "the Indian Express" -> "the newspaper Indian Express"
  • If the Nara-Narayana incarnation is significant enough to be mentioned in the lede sentence, why is it related (1) so late in the article, (2) in The Followers section, and(3) after Krishna-vatar and Purushottam-avatar are mentioned ? You may need an earlier section devoted to the topic of avatar. The corresponding criticism should be included in that section too, instead of being spun off into a stand-alone "Criticism" section that is deprecated by many FA reviewers (me too)
  • "In fact" Meaningless filler; can be safely deleted.
  • "with the Reginald Heber" -> "with Reginald Heber" (this has been mentioned earlier, but this seems to be a better place to include it)
  • "... or the supreme person and superior to other avatars." Fix punctuation and conjunctions.
  • Criticism
  • "criticised for the illegal collection of wealth" What ?! The context needs to be explained. Were there actual scandals and accusations by secular bodies, or is this just rhetoric by Dayanananda ?
  • "In the views of Swami Dayananda, would decorate himself as Narayana in order to gain followers." Unclear.
  • Again, include the criticism of treatment of women in the "Reform" section, instead of segregating it here.
  • "many would ... certain roles" Who is being quoted here. Need a inline attribution, or simply paraphrase if the person is not significant. Also the "However, while ..." statement should attributed, since otherwise we seem to be dismissing the earlier criticism in the encyclopedia's voice.
  • "This may seem regressive, however ..." Again, wikipedia seems to be taking sides here.

I haven't checked the quality of references yet, but will do so in the next day or two. Suggestion: use 2-or 3 columns for the References section, since 4 columns is causing too many linewraps.

Overall, I think the article easily meets the GA grade it has, but needs some work before it can reach featured status. The main areas to work on are,

  1. Grammar and formatting: not much work required. Grammatical and punctuation errors are isolated, but the article needs to be consistent in the use of italics, and Sanskrit vs English terms
  2. Prose and flow: requires significant work to meet the "brilliant" requirement. A good copyeditor may be able to help with this.
  3. POV: No significanat or explicit problems, but in some cases the article statemenst are too credulous for an encyclopedia.
  4. Organization: This is an editorial choice but I would have preferred a cleaner split between the Biographical and Teaching topics, with the latter being covered at a greater depth. That aside, I would highly recommend integrating the Criticism section into the main article body, and not relegating the avatar discussion to the Followers section.
  5. Images: Seem fine; more or greater variety would be better of course. Some may question if higher resolution images are available, especially for File:Shreeji_Maharaj.jpg, which is a photograph. Also all images need alt-text added - this is required by FA criterion now.
  6. Quality of references : Some of cited page numbers are incorrect, but this should be easy to fix. I haven't checked the quality of all the references, or if the references are a fair representation of the published literature. I'll do the former check in the next day or so, but you'll need some sort of a subject expert to confirm the latter.

Was fun reading the article. Let me know if any of my comments above were too cryptic. All the best for the FA drive. Abecedare (talk) 10:09, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for a comprehensive peer review.--Redtigerxyz Talk 11:22, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Striked out comments in lead. --Redtigerxyz Talk 11:37, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Ruhrfisch comments: Sorry for the delay, and glad tro see this has received such a thorough review. Here are some fairly nitpicky suggestions for improvement.

  • Would it make sense in the lead to briefly identify Vaishnavism in ...is the central figure in a modern sect of Hinduism known as the Swaminarayan Faith, a form of Vaishnavism.[2] - my guess is many more readers would know Vishnu vs Vaishnavism (it is linked, so this might not be needed)
  • I would the give the year of the estimate instead of currently in Currently, his following has been estimated between 5 and 20 million. in the lead
  • The Childhood section is only one paragraph - not sure if it could be combined with the following Travels section or not
  • In Travels, there are some places where more context could be provided for the reader - for example, could the meaning of Nilkanth Varni be given? Why did he choose this name?
  • Also could the meanings of the linked terms in each of the five questions be given or explained briefly (Jiva etc.)? This is already done nicely here While on his journey, Nilkanth Varni mastered Astanga yoga (eightfold yoga).[9]
  • In the Leadership as Sahajanand Swami section, the first three paragraphs are all very short (one, one and two sentences). Could they be combined or perhaps expanded?
  • Also would help to explain names like Sahajanand Swami if at all possible
  • Watch needless repetition - these two sentences can almost certainly be made more concise (just one sentence?): Sahajanand Swami was later known as Swaminarayan after the mantra he taught at a gathering, in Faneni, a fortnight after the death of Ramanand Swami.[16] He gave his followers a new mantra, known as the Swaminarayan mantra, to repeat in their rituals: Swaminarayan.[14] (three each of mantra and Swaminarayan in two sentences)
  • I would link ontology
  • Reforms for women and the poor - this subheader repeats the name of the header (Reforms) and could just be "For women and the poor" - two of the first three sentences in the section talk about distributing food and water to the poor (seems repetitive)
  • Needs a ref Swaminarayan mentions that humans would not be able to withstand meeting god in his divine form, hence God takes human form
  • I would print this out and read it carefully - there are minor inconsistencies and WP:Overlinking issues. For example, I noticed dharma is linked three times in the article and is italicised once, and has a short explanation after the last linked mention. I would add the brief explanation after the first use and make sure the italics are consistent (all the same)
  • Also is it god or God? see for example both in the same sentence Swaminarayan mentions that humans would not be able to withstand meeting god in his divine form, hence God takes human form
  • In the Criticisms section I would make it clearer who is saying each of the quotes.

Hope this helps. If my comments are useful, please consider peer reviewing an article, especially one at Wikipedia:Peer review/backlog. I do not watch peer reviews, so if you have questions or comments, please contact me on my talk page. Yours, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 20:27, 3 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review. --Redtigerxyz Talk 04:16, 4 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Anish (Indian Chronicles): Sorry for the delay. I will be checking now and then. If there is something I can correct, I will do it on the main page of article. If I feel something needs to be discussed I will discuss it here or on the talk page.

Those above are my comments on first reading. Overall it is a good article and made an interesting reading. I will try to contribute more if I can.--Anish (talk) 10:00, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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