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Sir William Gordon-Cumming, 4th Baronet

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Gordon-Cumming was the key figure in the Royal baccarat scandal. A friend of the Prince of Wales for 20 years, he was accused of cheating at cards which brought to an end his military career and social life. A trip to FAC is possible after this. - SchroCat (talk) 15:51, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

TO'D

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Just a few quick comments right off the bat: 1.) should the article title drop the "Sir", and 2.) should the infobox have "Sir" in the honourable prefix param? Tim O'Doherty (talk) 21:32, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Tim. 1. I don't think so - I think it is right to include it, but I'm not 100 per cent sure on the MOS on the point; 2. Possibly, but the box is already long enough and less is more when dealing with them. (I've only just added the box after 18 years without one, and only done that to avoid the IB warriors who will undoubtedly come to push the point endlessly, so I'm not sure adding more to it would be of use to the reader). Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 08:54, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Bit thin on the ground. Will do a proper review tomorrow. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 21:51, 18 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Doing now. Ping SchroCat.

  • He went on to serve in Egypt, in the Anglo-Egyptian War - simpler as He served in Egypt during the Anglo-Egyptian War?
  • in 1871 he published an account of his travels in India, Wild Men & Wild Beasts. Scenes in Camp and Jungle - do you have access to the accounts? If so, could be good to give a short excerpt.
  • In an attempt to scotch the rumours - In an attempt to put an end to the rumours might be a bit more understandable to a broader audience.
  • The Prince of Wales was present - just Edward was present?
  • their decision was greeted by prolonged hissing from some members of the galleries - that's quite funny.
  • Link The Times
  • Maybe combine the paragraph beginning Gordon-Cumming's senior counsel, the Solicitor General Sir Edward Clarke, remained convinced [...] with the paragraph above. Same could be done with The same day he married his American fiancée, the heiress Florence Garner, who had [...].
  • Any reason to relink Edward in who was by that stage King Edward VII?
  • Wl Postmark
  • Gordon-Cumming managed to disguise his contempt for the middle class society to which he was now limited so that he could continue to indulge himself in golf, croquet, billiards, cricket, bridge and collecting post marks - Are these two related, or should it be Gordon-Cumming managed to disguise his contempt for the middle class society to which he was now limited. He continued to indulge himself in golf, croquet, billiards, cricket, bridge and collecting post marks?
    • The source connects the two points. He was ostracised from one part of society but hated the people he had to socialise in another - he hid that contempt so he could continue his hobbies. - SchroCat (talk) 09:21, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • He ... considered his wife a "fat little frump" and unapologetically engaged in chronic infidelity - what a nasty little man he was.
  • Could combine some of the shorter quasi-paragraphs in "Private life".

That's all from me. Thoroughly enjoyable biography of the poster boy of upper-class British twits (that's not a typo). Overall, he seems like one of the vilest men alive at the time: probably why he and Edward got along. Cheers, Tim O'Doherty (talk) 20:04, 19 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks Tim. All done in this edit, except where noted. I'll have a look at Wild Men again - it's more a semi-technical 'how to' book than anything else The Rough Guide to Killing Tigers would be a modern interpretation - which beasts are available for slaughtering in which season, when to leave the UK and how to get there, that sort of stuff (pearls of wisdom such as "Should they not care to remain in the country till next cold season, two or three days will bring them back to Bombay; and at the end of the three weeks' journey home they will arrive in town for the best part of the season, and can have an opportunity of displaying their sunburnt faces to their friends in "The Row," as they gracefully loll against the railings at "Fool's-corner".) Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 09:21, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, thanks for the responses. I'd support this at FAC if you decide to take it there. Cheers, Tim O'Doherty (talk) 18:34, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Tim riley

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  • Lead
  • "A notorious womaniser, he is best known for being the central figure in the royal baccarat scandal of 1891" – this seems something of a non-sequitur as the Tranby Croft case was about cards and cheating rather than getting the leg over.
  • "he joined the Army" – why the capital letter? And a blue link mightn't be a bad idea.
  • Early life
  • "William was the second of the couple's four children and the eldest son" – eldest? An elder sister and two younger brothers? (Just checking.)
  • "his line had been traced from the fourth century, through Charlemagne" – citation?
  • Military career
  • "the last year commissions were allowed to be purchased" – perhaps the prose is a bit bumpy with this double passive? Possibly "the last year in which commissions were available for purchase", or "the last year in which it was possible to buy a commission" or similar?
  • "the condolences of the army to the Empress Eugénie" – the ex-Empress?
  • Royal baccarat scandal
  • "Clarke, remained convinced in his client" – odd way of putting it
  • Aftermath
  • "despite Gordon-Cumming twice offering to break off their engagement" – we've had this exchange before, elsewhere, but when a participle is used gerundively, as here, it is treated like a noun and needs to be "Gordon-Cumming's twice offering". Or if that's too convoluted, perhaps something like "although Gordon-Cumming twice offered to break off their engagement".
  • "According to the former Lord Chancellor, Michael Havers, the lawyer Edward Grayson and the historian Peter Shankland, "That the prince and society considered him a social outcast mattered not at all to his people"" – I had to read this sentence twice before I could make sense of it. Might be clearer if you turn the quote into indirect speech: "According to … Shankland, the local people did not care that society considered Gordon-Cumming a social outcast" or some such.
  • Later life
  • "Florence lost no opportunity to remind him who funded their life but eventually herself resorted to alcohol abuse" – not sure why "but".
  • "the couple rented ... The couple had effectively separated" – perhaps just "they" the second time?
  • Private life
  • "he was a friend of the Prince of Wales" – you've told us that in great detail already.

Hope these few thoughts are helpful. Pray ping me when you get to FAC. Tim riley talk 15:02, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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