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Saul (Handel)

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This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because I expanded this article from a stub and I plan to work on more articles on works of Handel. I would like feedback as to the quality of the article as it now stands and where more work may be needed. Thanks, Smeat75 (talk) 00:02, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Brianboulton comments: Unfortunately, I don't have time for a detailed review, and will be off-wiki altogether for the next nine days. There's time, however, for me to welcome the article as a useful expansion, and to make a few suggestions:

The Background section should be subdivided after the third paragraph. Most of its remaining content refers to the composition of the piece, and should be in an separate section
The final short paragraph of the Backround needs to be expanded into a "Reception and performance history" section, including an account of the firat performance (at which you say in the lead the work was well received), a brief summary of revivals in Handel's lifetime, and a short account of how it has fared since.
There needs to be a section which discusses the music in more detail, beyond the Winton Dean quote.
It is usual for such articles to contain a "Recordings" section.

You may wish to look at Messiah (Handel), not necessarily as a model for this article but as an indicator of structure and the sort of detail that might be included, especially if you were intending to take this article forward to GA or FA. Brianboulton (talk) 15:41, 15 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Gerda Arendt

A good start! General:

I suggest to handle the naming of pieces and quotes consistently, for example "Dead March" with always the same quotation marks.
I suggest to place the images in the plot all on the right. On my screen, Act 2 on the right of the image for Act 1 looks confusing.
Instead of the (always the same) Handel side navbox, I recommend something comparable to L'Arianna. (There's a beautiful navbox at the bottom.)
I would include a link to the Bible passage which is the base, 1 Samuel 15 (or whatever it is).
There are articles for the Witch of Endor and other characters including Saul himself, I would link.
Is there anything on performance history, besides knowing who sang Michal first?

Details:

The link to carillon is about those on towers, a bit misleading.
"Dramatis personae" - In opera it's simply "Roles".

That's it for now, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:54, 15 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

One more general: the titles in the image captions should be italic, and an alt text given. (Click on "alt text" in the box above to the right, if you don't know what I mean.) Speaking of accessibility, did you know that it is a nice service to provide template {{lang}} for expressions in a different language, for example an original title of the Schnorr von Carolsfeld picture? (He should be linked.) It doesn't change the rendition on the screen but helps readers who use screenreaders and more, see documentation. Here is an example how to implement it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:11, 16 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks to both of you for your helpful remarks, I will work more on the article in the coming days.Smeat75 (talk) 21:32, 15 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have tried to follow Gerda's suggestions and have added alt text to the images, except for the side navbox, which I don't want to mess with. Could someone please check the alt text I added and see if they are OK, I have never done that before. I'm afraid I can't understand the {{lang}} thing Gerda, do you mean I should translate the Schnorr von Carolsfeld picture caption into German? A lot of the characters, including the Witch of Endor, are linked in what is now the "Roles" section, is that OK? And there is a "Recordings" section Brian, there are so many I could not list them all. Performance history is going to be difficult, for Handel's lifetime there are records, after that I am not sure where to find references for performance. Thanks again to all for their help. I will be continuing to work on the article.Smeat75 (talk) 04:29, 19 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Tim riley

This is excellent as far as it goes, but I think you need additional sections on critical reception (then and subsequently), and performance history. Were there various critical editions of the score?

It would put the piece in context if you mentioned that Jennens compiled the libretto for Messiah.
The Dead March isn't an invariable fixture at state funerals in the UK.

That's all for now. This article has the potential for GA, but needs a bit more work. Tim riley (talk) 16:02, 18 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ruhrfisch comments

I agree with the comments above and have a few of my own to add. This is well done, but I think would still be a bit short of GA in its current state.

I think the Background section should be split into several sections, as noted above.
I think a "Composition" section could start at "By 1738, Handel was experiencing some difficulty in maintaining support for his Italian opera seasons in London and he collaborated with Charles Jennens for the first time."
It was not clear initially to me that the original text written here was that of "Saul" Jennens wrote an original English text based on Biblical characters, especially designed to provide opportunities for the sort of music Handel composed.
Composition could use some more details, if they are available. When in 1738 did composition begin? How long did the composition take?
Needs a ref "Handel eventually saw the matter the same way and placed the Hallelujahs where Jennens wanted them."
The last sentence of Background could be the nucleus of a critical reception section.
What was the commercial success of the work? Was it revived and if so, how often and when? Is it still performed today?
Per WP:HEADER could it just be "Dead March"? Also "Selected Recordings" should be "Selected recordings"
It is funny that the march is said to be played at British state funerals, but the two examples given are American politicians (albeit very well known ones). Could some examples of British funerals using it be given?
Selected Recordings needs refs
References should immediately follow punctuation - some have a space between the punctuation and the ref.
Please make sure that the existing text includes no copyright violations, plagiarism, or close paraphrasing. For more information on this please see Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2009-04-13/Dispatches. (This is a general warning I give in all peer reviews, in view of previous problems that have risen over copyvios.)

Hope this helps. If my comments are useful, please consider peer reviewing an article, especially one at Wikipedia:Peer review/backlog. I do not watch peer reviews, so if you have questions or comments, please contact me on my talk page. Yours, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 14:04, 20 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]