Wikipedia:Peer review/Sargon II/archive1

Sargon II

I've listed this article for peer review because I hope to get it to FA. The article passed a GA review almost two years ago but I've recently expanded it further so a second opinion would be very welcome.

Thanks, Ichthyovenator (talk) 18:04, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

Buidhe

• The length seems a bit excessive. Anything over 10,000 words readable prose is likely to get opposes at FAC based on length; this is at 11269 words and seems longer because of block quotations and lots of images. The article also falls into the "Probably should be divided" range per WP:SIZERULE. I wonder if there is opportunity for more conciseness or greater use of summary style, perhaps by splitting the article or moving content into existing articles such as Urartu–Assyria War; note that the FA criteria requires the use of summary style. IMO, the "character" and "legacy" sections both strike me as possible candidates for splitting or trimming, since it seems to me that these aspects could be summed up in fewer words. Rediscovery of Sargon II seems like it's independently notable.

@Buidhe: Thank you for taking a look here. It's definitely possible to shorten down a bit and perhaps to split parts of the legacy section off - I'll make an attempt at it soon. For future reference, how do I see the word count? I've just been keeping track of the byte count (108,065 right now). Ichthyovenator (talk) 11:13, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

I use Wikipedia:Prosesize. (t · c) buidhe 11:19, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Thank you; I'll work on trimming some of the possible fluff. Ichthyovenator (talk) 23:47, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

I've created Rediscovery of Sargon II. Ichthyovenator (talk) 23:10, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

@Buidhe: The article is now (slightly) below both 10,000 words and 100,000 kb. Ichthyovenator (talk) 13:29, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

• The lead length seems overlong to me. Although technically it's only four paragraphs, with a lead this long it's hard to quickly get an idea of the most important points.

I've shortened it down a bit. The paragraphs all cover different aspects (1: introduction, 2: Sargon as a warrior and his conquests, 3: Sargon's idea of justice and the evident implementation of some of his ideas and 4: death and legacy). It's difficult for me to find more stuff that could be cut away if that's necessary. Ichthyovenator (talk) 23:47, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

• Although the article organization seems generally good to me, some of the body sections such as "Proxy wars and minor conflicts" and "Urartu–Assyria War" are quite long and might be difficult to parse for some readers on mobile devices. (t · c) buidhe 00:49, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Both of these sections have been somewhat shortened down along with other portions. Ichthyovenator (talk) 13:29, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

After copyediting some parts of the article, it seems to me that the length issue can be ameliorated by tightening the prose and reducing duplication throughout the article. It could take me a while to get through the entire text, though. (t · c) buidhe 05:37, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Incidentally, I have a review open at Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Sayfo, in case you are interested in commenting. (t · c) buidhe 05:48, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

I've left a quick comment and I'll try to read through the entire article at some point in the next few days :) Ichthyovenator (talk) 11:20, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

• "the insurgents went on a killing spree, murdering all local Assyrians they could find. This likely meant the capture and murder of the entire local Assyrian ruling class." Seems contradictory. Did they kill all Assyrians or just the ruling class?

Yeah this got a bit weird; the local Assyrians were the local ruling class so it's all they could find period. Removed the second part. Ichthyovenator (talk) 11:20, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

• Frequent use of unattributed words like probably likely, etc. may be unavoidable when dealing with ancient history but they are discouraged by MOS:WTW. I would consider if some of these should be rephrased to something more specific, such as "according to Elayi".

Also a bit difficult since in many cases it's not just whoever is sourced but the wider community of scholars who believe something is probable or likely (but not confirmed); I'll go through soon and see what I can do. Ichthyovenator (talk) 11:20, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

• "There were various numerical and geometrical correspondences between different aspects of the city and the length of the city walls also had some unknown relation to the name Sargon." this sentence is pretty vague, I would either try to be more specific or delete it, leaving the details for the palace article.

The relation to his name is a bit pointless to include but I've moved up the various numerial and geometrial correspondences part to where it previously discusses how math influenced the construction. Ichthyovenator (talk) 11:20, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

• "Ahat-Abisha was probably forced to return to Assyria" given that it's indicated this is uncertain, how do we know whether it was forced or voluntary?

True. Changed to just say that she probably returned to Assyria. Ichthyovenator (talk) 11:20, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

• Let me know what you think of my edits, the article is now down to 8260 words. (t · c) buidhe 08:04, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for copy-editing. It's difficult to see what can be cut if you've spent a significant amount of time pouring everything you feel is relevant into some writing. I've restored some small portions which I think hold some relevance (though we'll see if they survive FAC I guess) or where I think the meaning was changed (an example: referring to Hanigalbat as "western Assyria" rather than a "western part of the empire" is not strictly correct since "Assyria" in a geographical sense does not correspond to the entire empire), rephrased some stuff for clarity and removed the weasel words you marked. It's up to 8347 words, so no enormous alterations. Ichthyovenator (talk) 11:20, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Caeciliusinhorto

A couple of notes (just on the section on background so far - this is a chunky article!):

• The endnote on Sargon's date of birth, though it accurately represents the source, is baffling to me: if Sargon's grandson Ashur-nadin-shumi was 20 in 700 BC, he was born in 720. That's fine. But in order to date Sargon to c.770, despite saying that Assyrian men normally married between the ages of 26 and 32, we must assume that Sennacherib married and had a son by the age of 25, and that Sargon married and had more than one son by that age, all on the strength of "royals might have married earlier"!? Yes, that is what the source says, but still.

It is a bit strange, yes, but it is what the source says so not sure how to amend this. Ichthyovenator (talk) 12:16, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

• "blatant lie" is a strong claim to make in wikipedia's voice!

It was a blatant lie :) but yes, made it a little less strong. Ichthyovenator (talk) 12:16, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

• "In late Assyrian texts, the names of Sargon II and Sargon of Akkad are written with the same spelling." - is Sargon I's name spelled differently? If so, explicitly say so; if not, what is the relevance of this? Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 12:01, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

I believe Sargon I is also Šarru-kīn, but Sargon of Akkad's name is spelt Šar-ru-gi in texts from his own time and Šarru-kīn in texts from Sargon II's time, perhaps suggesting a conscious association. Ichthyovenator (talk) 12:16, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Comments on the first half of §Reign, up to the end of §Urartu–Assyrian war:

• "Sargon's claim to conquering the city may be related to the city participating in Yahu-Bihdi's revolt and thus needing to be captured for a second time." you say "the city" four times in three sentences, including twice very close together here: suggest rephrasing.

Rephrased. Ichthyovenator (talk) 15:29, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

• "Resettled people in the Neo-Assyrian Empire were not harmed or killed, but actually treated well and transported in safety and comfort. They were highly valued for their labor and transported as safely and comfortably as possible, together with their families and belongings." I bet the resettled Israelites weren't so pleased at their treatment that they would have repeated "safety and comfort" twice when describing it!

Made this a bit less pro-deportation and removed the second safety and comfort. Ichthyovenator (talk) 15:29, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

• "the insurgents went on a killing spree" - the wikilink here redirects to Spree killer, which I suspect is not the most appropriate possible target. Mass murder or massacre may be better targets?

Linked to massacre. Ichthyovenator (talk) 15:29, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

• "Qarqar was subsequently destroyed and burnt down and the surrounding lands were devastated." - Very noticeable passive voice, especially compared to the "extremely violent" rebels! Do you mean "Sargon['s army] destroyed Qarqar and devastated the surrounding land"?

I removed the "extremely violent" comment for the rebels, which should make both instances more passive. Also changed to make it clear that Sargon's forces were the destroyers here. Ichthyovenator (talk) 15:29, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

• "but Midas also counteracted Assyrian interests not through outright invasion but through proxy warfare," - does "not through outright invasion" add anything here? If not, cut it. Especially in an article this long there's no need for excessive verbosity!

No, it does not really add anything; I just wanted to emphasize the difference to conventional warfare since it seemed like an innovative approach from Midas. Ichthyovenator (talk) 15:29, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

• "Despite Sargon's repeated victories in the west, the Levant was not fully stabilized even after Pisiri's defeat and new problems would continue to arise in the region over the course of the years that followed." - "over the course of the years that followed" looks unnecessary to me.

Removed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 15:29, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

• "Sargon assembled his personal bodyguard and personally led them" - repetition of personal. I would certainly cut the first use - I have no idea what an impersonal bodyguard might look like! - but I'm not sure that either use is necessary.

Yeah, you're right - cut both "personal"s. Ichthyovenator (talk) 15:29, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

• "Having defeated his enemy and perhaps fearing that his army may turn on him" - "may" is present tense; should be "might" (or alternatively you could say "would")

Changed to "might". Ichthyovenator (talk) 15:29, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

• "captured and plundered Musasir. The city was plundered after the local governor, king Urzana, refused to welcome Sargon in. Urzana's palace was plundered and looted" - three repetitions of "plundered"; also are "plundered" and "looted" sufficiently different to justify "plundered and looted"? I would suggest "...captured and plundered Musasir, after the local governor, king Urzana, refused to welcome Sargon. Urzana's palace was looted..." Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 13:11, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Changed to your suggestion. Ichthyovenator (talk) 15:29, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

More nitpicking from me, up to the end of §Character – just legacy left now!:

• "100,000 square meters (10 hectares)": I hate to be the one to bring up MOS:UNITS, but I think according to a strict reading of the rules you need to provide an imperial/US customary equivalent here – presumably acres or square feet?

Added size in acres. Ichthyovenator (talk) 09:06, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

• "Despite his successful military leadership, Sargon does not appear to have been a charismatic military leader." - can this be rephrased to avoid the repetition of "military leadership ... military leader"? Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 11:21, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Changed "successful military leadership" to "successes". Ichthyovenator (talk) 09:06, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Final push:

• "The move of the capital to Nineveh is somewhat puzzling given that the city was an entirely new city explicitly built to house the royal court." - repetition of "city". I'm also confused: is the "entirely new city" we're talking about here Nineveh, which I thought was a long-established settlement by this time? Or is it Dur-Sharrukin?

The "entirely new city" is Dur-Sharrukin; it's pointing out that Dur-Sharrukin was a freshly built city designed to be an imperial capital which makes the move a bit strange. Made this clear and removed repetition of "city". Nineveh was long-established and quite large as well, yes. Ichthyovenator (talk) 09:06, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Overall this is a very well-written and apparently thoroughly sourced article, and FA seems like an eminently achievable goal. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 14:06, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

@Caeciliusinhorto: Thank you! :) Ichthyovenator (talk) 09:06, 7 March 2022 (UTC)