Wikipedia:Peer review/Princess Louise, Duchess of Argyll/archive1

Princess Louise, Duchess of Argyll

This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because I wish to get it to FA status. I will respond to comments as quickly as possible. Thanks, PeterSymonds | talk 18:44, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

• A script has been used to generate a semi-automated review of the article for issues relating to grammar and house style. If you would find such a review helpful, please click here. Thanks, APR _t 15:17, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Review by DrKiernan

I enjoyed reading your article, and think it's very good, but I do have several comments/suggestions:

• "her dissatisfaction with the royal court led her to pursue artistic talents". Why should dissatisfaction lead to art? I don't see an obvious logical connection.
  • Addressed
• I suggest you rephrase "royal houses of Prussia and Denmark were suggested by members of Queen Victoria's family, but Victoria wanted new blood in the British royal family, and therefore suggested a member of the British aristocracy. Despite opposition from members of the royal family," so that it is less repetitive (too many royals and families).
  • Addressed
• Dates should not be piped like this: [[17 May|17 May]]. All these piped links need to be removed; just format them normally: [[17 May]].
  • Addressed. I think I got them all.
• There are a lot of unused parameters in the citation templates (format= and the like). They're bulking up the page unnecessarily and should be removed.
  • Addressed. I don't know why I didn't think of that.
• "This was further enhanced by the fact that she was Victoria's most beautiful daughter." Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. This is an opinion which should be stated to be an opinion held by so-and-so.
  • Addressed.
• "because of his lifestyle, the Queen vetoed the idea." needs a citation.
  • Addressed
• "No British princess had married a person of non-royal blood since Mary Tudor" Hmmmn. What about the rumours that George III's daughters married commoners? Also, Princess Mary Adelaide of Cambridge married a non-royal. (Yes, he was a prince and yes, he was of royal blood, but he didn't have a "royal" title). I would also assume that Argyll was descended from royalty in some way or another. Most British nobles were.
  • I understand your point. Francis, Duke of Teck was made a (German) duke before his marriage, and as a peer he wouldn't have been considered a commoner in England. I don't know how it was in Germany at the time, though. It now reads "daughter of a Sovereign", as this is correct, and is backed up by DNB. This removes the problems about the Duke of Teck. However, it's undelibrately misleading: I meant officially, i.e. with the Sovereign's consent, so the daughters of George III beat Louise to it unoffically. I've reworded.
  • Actually, the ODNB article states: "The queen claimed that the marriage was ‘the most popular act of my reign’ (Fulford, 305) and the press generally hailed it for striking a ‘democratic’ note, Louise being the first daughter of a sovereign since 1515 to marry a commoner." I've changed royal blood to commoner, seems more appropriate.
• "tall and handsome" and " strikingly good looking" are opinions which should be phrased as such.
  • Addressed. Added examples of biographers that state this.
• ""the fact that middle age settled early over the plump Beatrice" Is it a fact? Or is it flowery language that others might consider unfair?
  • Addressed. Wake's basing evidence on opinions of biographers, but on thought it seems a bit POV.
• "were also strained, and they often went their own ways, despite the Queen's attempts to keep them under one roof. Lorne's relationship with the rest of the royal family was also not easy, and even when he accompanied Louise, he was not always received with favour at court; and the Prince of Wales did not take to him." Too many "and"s and "also"s!
  • Addressed.
• The chronology of the "1901-1914" section is confused with Lorne inheriting the Dukedom twice.
  • Addressed. Oops.
• "became known as the “Grand Lady of Kensington”." needs a citation.
  • Addressed. I can't find the exact page number so I've reworded with a reliable source. The palace was called "Auntie Palace" or "Aunt Heap" by the present Queen and Princess Margaret, which I think is a better and more affectionate touch.
• " without the regal pomp and circumstance" Yuch! Can we find a simpler way of saying this?
  • Interesting. It was meant to suggest the fact that Louise's funeral went without the lines of guards, dignitaries, foreign ambassadors, and crowds of thousands. I've reworded to "quietly and simply".
• "she liked the Canadian people and retained close links with her Canadian regiment. Back at home, she gained a reputation for paying unscheduled visits to hospitals, especially during her later years." Citations please!
  • Addressed. There was once a citation for this...
• The charge of kleptomania against Queen Mary is indefensible. Re-arranging furniture and admiring a clock do not equate with theft.
  • I've added the fact that she was admiring it with the intention of adding it to her collection (Wake makes clear that she was intending to have it for herself). I think the furniture bit says what it needs to. Mary comes to Kensington, goes into a room and arranges for it to be dispersed (where, it is not stated). It's not rearrangement, it's removal. However, if you think it should be clearer then please say so (sources aren't a problem).
• "Louise was concerned about her great-niece, Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent, to whom she lent her train." Don't see the connection: lending someone your clothes stems from generosity not fear.
  • Addressed. There was no fear, Louise was just worried about how Marina got on with the ceremony.
• I don't like the last paragraph. The article is about Louise not architecture.
  • Removed. I'll write something more Louise-related.

Glad to see you're working on this article as well as Beatrice. DrKiernan (talk) 15:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

• Thanks for the changes but I still disagree on one point. If something is part of the Royal Collection it can go anywhere in any Royal palace. It isn't Mary's or Louise's; it belongs to the collection. As custodian of the collection, Mary had a perfect right to put things where-ever she chose. You even say "Unknown to Mary...the pieces were Louise's". It is not theft to re-arrange your own furniture. As for the clock, Mary expressed an interest in adding it to the collection. Pieces are acquired for the Royal Collection all the time; they belong to the nation and are either bought for or given to it. Louise refused to donate the clock, and Mary did not take it. The word used, kleptomania, an insane compulsion to steal, is insupportable. DrKiernan (talk) 08:25, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
  • I see what you mean. I've removed the statement.
• Thanks. There's one more very minor thing: some editors prefer portraits to face into the page rather than out. You might also consider moving the image of Louise's statue of her mother up a paragraph or two (but you'd have to move the infobox). DrKiernan (talk) 09:01, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Done. I still need to work on some of your comments but Thankyou very much for your input; it's helped the article greatly. If you see anything else then please let me know. PeterSymonds | talk 16:22, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Review by karanacs

• • The two clauses in this sentence seem to have little to do with each other: "Louise was unsympathetic to Victoria's prolonged mourning, but during this time she excelled in sculpture and painting."
    • Addressed
  • Watch out for repetition: "Royal suitors from the royal houses..."
    • Addressed
  • Image captions should not end with a period unless they are complete sentences.
    • Thanks.
  • Be careful with phrases that are too colloquial, like "She soon got bored "
    • I was wondering about that. Addressed.
  • "The Queen made it a tradition ..." -> this sentence is a little unwieldy
    • Addressed.
  • This does not seem to belong in this article; "This was not the first time that the Queen had to remove romantic temptation from her daughters. In 1863, Princess Helena had a flirtation with Prince Albert's former librarian, Carl Ruland.[17] He was promptly sent back to Germany and never lost the Queen's hostility"
    • Addressed.
  • "This was further enhanced by the fact that she has been praised by biographers and contemporaries " -> the fact that she was praised by biographers did not make her a desirable bride at the time; I assume the article means that the fact that she was beautiful made her a desirable bride
    • Addressed.
  • "However, her appearance was also the subject of negative press reports of alleged romantic affairs" -> this does not make sense to me
    • Addressed.
  • "The choice had to suit the Queen as well as Louise, and therefore her new husband would have to be prepared to live close to the Queen, as Prince Christian of Schleswig-Holstein had promised when he married Princess Helena" -> this needs to be reworded
    • Addressed.
  • What was it about William of Orange's lifestyle that made the Queen reject him?
    • Addressed. Openly living with a mistress.
  • "It was Louise herself who " -> why not just "Louise" (that would get rid of 4 words that don't add any value to the sentence)
    • Addressed. It was meant to show that, despite the apparent warring between the Queen and PoW over Louise's future husband, Louise actually had an opinion.
  • I didn't think that members of the nobility would be described as "commoners". I thought it was royalty, nobility, then commoners.
    • Only the the Sovereign and Peers of the Realm are not commoners. So technically, Prince William and Prince Harry are also commoners, because they hold no title.
  • The article alternates between referring to her as "Princess Louise" or just as "Louise". This needs to be consistent
    • Addressed. I've left the "Princess" in the image captions, and also one in the main body of the text, because it describes the woman wanting to go and see Princess Louise (not realising she was with her)
  • Make sure that all measurements have both metric and standard equivalents
  • " The press played down the story under the instruction of Lorne's private secretary, an act that was criticised." -> criticised by whom?
    • Addressed.
  • " where the couple were greeted with cheering crowds." -> Need a citation for this
    • Addressed.
  • Need citations for every one of the sentences "Relations between Louise and Lorne were strained, and they often went their separate ways, despite the Queen's attempts to keep them under one roof. Lorne's relationship with the rest of the royal family was not always easy. Even when he he accompanied Louise, he was not always received with favour at court; and the Prince of Wales did not take to him. Out of all the royal family, Lorne was the only one to be identified closely with a political party, having been a Gladstonian liberal in the House of Commons."
    • Addressed.
  • "When the affair was exposed" -> this makes it sound like the rumors were definitely true
    • Addressed.
  • ""famous sculptor" may be a little POV
    • Addressed. Removed "famous", though he was the Queen's sculptor-in-ordinary.
  • Louise's sister Victoria is described in several different ways in the article. While I am sure all of these are proper ways to refer to her, the article should use only one so that readers don't get confused.
    • Addressed.
  • Why is "Black woman" capitalized?
    • Shouldn't black as in race be capitalized? I've uncapitilized it.
  • "Realising that she had not been recognised, Louise enquired whether McCarthy would recognise her again. When she failed to do so, " -> when she failed to recognise Louise again?
    • Addressed.
  • Why is will wikilinked twice in the article? I don't think it ought to be wikilinked at all.
    • Addressed.

Karanacs (talk) 03:42, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your much appreciated efforts. PeterSymonds | talk 10:19, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Review by The Rambling Man

So firstly, thanks for asking me to contribute. I'd like to clarify that this isn't normally the sort of article I turn my eye to but I'll do my best. If I make some basic errors then forgive me! Onto my comments.

• I'm slightly confused about the use of her title in the lead and the fact it's the third one in the infobox - should her styles be in chronological order in the infobox or are they in descending order of precedence?
  • Ah. Yes, in the infobox the titles are in chronological order from bottom to top. I've never really understood why, but I wasn't responsible for the creation of the infoboxes, so I assume it's part of the British Royalty style guide.
• Lead has five paragraphs. I know this is a big article but in general stick to four maximum.
  • I've merged the last two paragraphs, as the Canada paragraph was a bit short anyway.
• "...into the intimate family atmosphere of Victoria and Albert." - this is a bit POV for a lead sentence in my opinion. And I'm not sure it adds much to the lead.
  • Indeed. I've removed it.
• "to which Louise was unsympathetic." - why? Seems incongruous after the intimate bit preceding it. Or perhaps that was why. It's just a bit odd.
  • I'll find a better way to say this.
• "women's movement, " - this could do with being linked out to something otherwise it could be interpreted as something very different!
  • :) Addressed.
• "The question of Louise's marriage was discussed by the 1870s." - this sentence doesn't make any sense to me I'm afraid.
  • Addressed.
• "were suggested, Victoria wanted new blood in the family," - odd grammatical flow. A full stop or semi colon at the least before Victoria. Plus, you've cited claims after this in the lead but "want[ing] new blood" is a big claim without citation.
  • Addressed.
• "she lost some popularity as a result." - at this point in the article we didn't even know she any to start with!
  • Addressed. I've removed the statement; it's discussed later on anyway.
• "the new King Edward VII." - surely there'll only ever be one King Edward VII? I know what you mean, the new King, Edward VII. Perhaps a comma?
  • Yep. Addressed.
• "Louise and her husband reconciled" had they split?
  • Addressed. Added a clarifying note about separation.
• My usual - World War I is so American for me, can we pipe it to First World War? Especially as you use Second World War later.
  • Of course. Addressed.
• ninety-one - usually just go for numerals above 10 so 91.
  • Oh right. Thanks for that, Addressed.
• Seventh child in the first paragraph of Early life and sixth child in the lead.
  • How strange. Addressed.
• "queen's " - "Queen's"?
  • Yep. Addressed.
• Osborne should be Osborne House the first time. It helps us non-experts. It's introduced and located on its second use. Make that happen the first time.
  • Addressed.
• "1 June 1862." - comma missing.
  • The date was piped. Addressed.
• Consider a template like {{cquote}} for the lengthy quote in Suitors section.
  • Addressed.
• This may sound vague but there are several short sentences which could be flowed together to improve the prose.
  • I'll read again and tighten.
• "arrived officially in Halifax " - is this a Royal "official arrival"? Reads a little strange to a non-expert - they'd arrive when they arrived!
  • Addressed. They were sworn in so I've replaced it with that.
• "In Canada, Lorne always took precedence over Louise, so at the Canadian State Opening of Parliament on February 13, 1879, Louise remained standing until Lorne as Governor General requested the attendants to be seated." - can you explain why?
  • Addressed. Despite her royal rank, it was Lorne who was Governor-General, so the rest were like his subjects.
• "twenty-eight pound (12.5 kg)" - use the {{convert}} template - it gives you good standard conversions and non-breaking spaces and good stuff like that.
  • Addressed.
• " 366 metres." - not a chance that this was the original measurement! Again, use the convert template, starting in Imperial units and ending in metres.
  • Addressed. I'm not sure how to get exactly 366m (it comes out as 370 if I'm converting feet to metres).
• MP - wikilnk.
  • Addressed.
• Ref 43 is used three sentences in a row, 44 is used four times in a row. Overkill, use them once at the end of each relevant portion of the section.
  • I take your point, but all quotes have to be referenced, and they are (except one, which I've removed) citing quotes.
• "Lorne resumed his political career, and campaigned for, and losing, the Hampstead seat in 1885." - lost the seat, not losing. I'd go "Lorne resumed his political career, campaigning unsuccessfully for..."
  • Addressed.
• First subsection of later life is titled by years, anomalous compared to the other titles.
  • Replaced with "Edwardian period". It's often said that the Edwardian style of living came to at the beginning of the First World War, anyway.
• "economizing" - ARGH! Ensure that British English is used throughout so s instead of zee.
  • Addressed.
• sixty-eight - as above, this is probably 68.
  • Addressed.
• "Following a simple funeral owing to the war, she was buried, quietly and simply,..." - simply simple... too much!
  • Addressed.
• "Queen Elizabeth later ..." - presumably you still mean the second version? State it.
  • Addressed.
• Ref [82] is anomalous, the other titles don't have a ref, and it should be after punctuation if possible.
  • Addressed. I've removed it.
• Multiple page references typically use "pp." for pages.
  • Addressed. I was told not to do so but I use it everywhere else.

Hope this run through has been of use to you. I found the article very interesting and I think 99% of my comments are trivial, but bound to be picked up at WP:FAC. Good luck and let me know if I can help further. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:13, 11 February 2008 (UTC)