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Pasqua Rosée

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Rosée is a slightly ephemeral figure in London history. He lived in London between 1651 and 1658 and little is known about him outside those dates. Not too much is really known about him inside those dates either, except that he opened a coffee shop. It was the first one in London, and probably in Britain, and we've not looked back since. A trip to FAC is considered at some point in the future. SchroCat (talk) 16:37, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from TR

I saw this in draft, and was very happy with it then. Nothing much leaps out at me on a further perusal.

I think in the lead I might tinker with the punctuation to help the reader's eye along: in "Christopher "Kitt" Bowman, a freeman of the City, join Rosée..." I'd change the commas into parenthetic dashes.(In the main text at the same point the commas are fine.)
"left London for a misdemeanour" − perhaps "as a result of" or some such?
"While Edwards's servants prepared his food, Rosée prepared his coffee" − We are verging on "While the Bishop preached the sermon the Dean read the lesson" territory here. I might turn "while" into "although" or similar.

That's my lot, except to mention the resonant phrase, "the first coffee house opened in London ... the taste, it's thought, was unspeakable, but people liked the effect it had..." (from BBC's In Our Time (here). A pleasing line, though not necessarily for mention in the article.

While I'm here, can you help me work out how to stop the closed PR for Otto Klemperer remaining on the list of PRs? Thine, Puzzled of Islington, a.k.a. Tim riley talk 21:19, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Tim riley, apologies for not healing with this more promptly: sheer foolishness on my part in that I hadn't watchlisted the page when I opened the PR! (And I was just about to drop you a line asking if you could open the batting for it too) Is there still an issue with the Klemperer PR? If so, point me in the general direction and I'll have a look. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 12:35, 24 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Serial

I know it's only the lead, but in the first para we learn that they were both in Smyrna in 1651, but in the second para they both returned to Smyrna the same year. I'm sure what they did for a portion of that year elsewhere isn't leadworthy, of course, but could you change the wording to omit the too/from tension?
"By 1708..." should that be an en dash at the end? Wouldn't the humblest of commas do? :)
Per MOS:CENTURY, either numeric or spelt-out centuries (21st century in the lead, seventeenth century in biography first line, for example.)
"an English merchant of the Levant Company... English merchants preferred": repetition of "English merchant"; perhaps something like "traders such as these" or something for the second use.
"a clerk of accounts..." quote. I hope nobody slaps a {{According to whom}} template on that :)
Third para: "Royalist cadre". Indeed. (And I think you mention puritans later?) It's a bit tricky, as it's not worth an entire background section, but some explanation that a bit of a brouhaha had just taken place, and that by now royalsts were the losers, often in exile, while the puritans were effectively in government. Perhaps a sentence opening the second para.
- Yep, good point. I'll do this pre-FAC - either a line or an expanded footnote, whichever works well when I've added it. - SchroCat (talk) 07:21, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
[He must've been speeding his nads off most of the time!]
"so many visited": Any idea why he or his coffee was so popular? It sounds like there might be a special reason? Politics perhaps, like Talleyrand's breakfasts?
- Much more prosaic: the novelty of the the drink. - SchroCat (talk) 07:45, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As you've probably seen, I've tweaked the map, I hope it's an improvement. If not, ~~see you at Arbcom~~ feel free to revert :)
- No, I like it. - SchroCat (talk) 07:21, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Levantine clothing", OR, but IIRC, for most of the pubs called this, it's specifically as turban?
- He was also dressed in robes, rather than a jacket, so this covers both. - SchroCat (talk) 07:45, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I know it's mostly in quotes, but some of "dropsy, gout and scurvy... scrofula... spleen, hypocondriack winds" are so archaic as to require a link. Except gout perhaps...
"licentious activities of the royalists": elsewhere, you have them in upper case.
"Markman Ellis considers the estimate...": Just Ellis, as he has already been fully introduced.
- Need the first name on these, as there is an Aytoun Ellis in the sources too. - SchroCat (talk) 07:21, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
How about centering the poem? Just a thought.
"Increasingly they became...": Markman again!
In 'Legacy', surprised no mention that coffee shops such as these effectively became the trading floor for the very early stock exchange. See e.g.[1] (e.g.Lloyd's Coffee House became the insurer Lloyd's of London.)
We've got an entire article on English coffeehouses in the 17th and 18th centuries which seems to be never linked to?
Thanks SchroCat, apologies for not noticing this before, but I was summoned on holiday last week and got back only last night. Looking forward to FACing this at some point in the future :) SN54129 14:45, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Cheers SN. All done bar three of them that need a bit more thought and work, so I'll sort those before FAC. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 15:44, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]