Wikipedia:Peer review/Mangalorean Catholics/archive3

Mangalorean Catholics

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A script has been used to generate a semi-automated review of the article for issues relating to grammar and house style; it can be found on the automated peer review page for February 2009.

This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because this article has recently achieved GA status. Sugestions to elevate this article to FA status will be appreciated.

Thanks, Kensplanet (talk) 17:56, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Comments by Redtigerxyz

The article has improved a lot since my last visit to this article at the 1st GA review, few more things to do:

"Portuguese shipping arrived in Mangalore in 1526, and Catholic missionary activities began around 1534, when Canara was placed under the ecclesiastic jurisdiction of the Bishop of Goa." This sentence seems a bit out of place in lead para 1. Questions that arise in a reader's (my) mind
- HOw Mangalorean Catholics realted to Portuguese shipping?
- "Catholic missionary activities began" --> conversions. right??? But then I read "Most of the ancestors of Mangalorean Catholics were Goan Catholics". So Goan Catholics migarted to Mangalore are Mangalorean Catholics. right?
  - The Goans migrated to Mangalore after 1560. From 1500 to 1560, the Portuguese did convert local people in Mangalore. That may be just 1%. The 99% later arrived from Goa. That's the reason Portuguese shipping and missionary activities need to be mentioned for local conversions. Missionary activities do not mean only conversions. They may also mean building of churches, working for development of people etc. Kensplanet (talk) 09:43, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Lead: "resettled in South Canara" when did they move? "returned to South Canara" would be better?
- They didn't move. Tipu captured and forced them to move to Seringapatam. Resettled is a proper term. When the Mangalorean Catholics were captured, all their lands, estates, houses were taken over by Tipu and distributed among Hindus. After Tipu was killed, the 15,000 Mangalorean Catholics who survived didn't have anything. No houses, lands, etc..They had to build everything again in Mangalore. Returned indicates that they still owned their lands, houses after coming back to Mangalore, which is not true. That's the reason, Resettled is a proper term, which indicates they had to build everything again in Mangalore from scratch. Kensplanet (talk) 09:43, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Lead: "the community's history was a 15-year captivity imposed by Tipu Sultan" the entire community was captive? most of them or leading members???
- 60,000 out of 67,000. 92% of them. So most of them. But Tipu's intent was to capture all of them and kill them. But however, the 7,000 who escaped later reconverted back to Hinduism or left Mangalore and migrated to Thane, Ratnagiri, Kerala etc..because Mangalore was under Tipu and Tipu would have killed them if he had come to know. Kensplanet (talk) 09:56, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"Pre-migration era" talks so much about conversions. Are local converts included as Mangalorean Catholics?
- YES: Who were they before: Hindus, Jains, Muslims, Sikhs, Protestants (not Catholic)?
- NO: The conversion decision is not needed
  - - No idea who were they. Not enough research has been done on this. According to me, they were Hindus and Jains. But no WP:OR. From 1500 to 1560, as I told earlier, there were local conversions which amounted to 1,026 converts. The rest 99,000 later arrived from Goa. So 1% local and 99% from Goa. Kensplanet (talk) 10:04, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      - I assume some of them were Saint Thomas Christians. Catholics have been converted from that other great non-Mediterranean branch of Christianity, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. Some scholar must have published speculations on the faith of the original converts. -- llywrch (talk) 19:16, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Then in Hyder ali para, I read "Mangalorean Catholics, who had been converted to Christianity by the Portuguese." "Many of the Goan ancestors of the present Mangalorean Catholics fled Goa because of the Goa Inquisition introduced by the Portuguese in 1560" right. No mention of their conversion by the Portuguese.
Migration era: "But many Christians of Goa... About 7,000 of them (mostly Saraswat Brahmins)" Brahmins are Hindus, right?
- The Christians even after conversion followed the Hindu caste system. Saraswat Brahmins indicated they were Christians, but belonged to Brahmin caste. Kensplanet (talk) 10:04, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"Later, this was identified as a probable mistake ( by whom? )and should have read "8,000"
- No idea. Kensplanet (talk) 10:04, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Add name of reference, according to ________, a mistake.--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 12:34, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"However even this figure included the second emigration of Christians from Goa." which other figure. second emigration is mentioned the first time.
File:Mangalorean catholic migration.JPG is not up to scale, India map is distorted. Thus should replaced with an accurate map.
"The Bijapur sultans were especially known for their loathing of Christianity." ^{[citation needed]}
"Hyder Ali occupied Mangalore in 1763" who was Hyder Ali in 1763? Merchant, army commander who?
In 1768, "15,675 of them were taken as prisoners to Mysore by Hyder."..." Only 204 returned; the rest died, were killed, or converted to Islam" Total: Catholics 15900 approx. " More than 5,600 Mangalorean Catholics, who were condemned for treachery, were killed" So about 10,900 remained? In 1784, "a Scottish soldier and the first collector of Canara, around 60,000 of them,[30] nearly 92 percent of the entire Mangalorean Catholic community, were captured, only 7,000 escaped" Total 67,000 OR 80,000. In a decade, 10900 --> 67,000 OR 80,000. A population explosion on this scale is unheard of, in medieval times. The numbers do not add up
- Those 15,675 of them captured was not the entire Mangalorean Catholic community. It was only a part of them. It may be around 60,000, out of which 15,675 were captured. Kensplanet (talk) 10:14, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"The Jamalabad fort route. Mangalorean Catholics had traveled through this route on their way to Seringapatam" ^{[citation needed]}
- I don't think facts which are cited in the Main Prose need to be recited in the Captions. In the Main Prose, the fact that they travelled through the Jamalabad fort route has already been cited by Christianity in Mangalore. Kensplanet (talk) 10:14, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"David Baird, a British officer, discovering the body of Tipu Sultan on 4 May 1799" is too remotely related to Mangalorean catholics. IMO An image of Tipu Sultan or Haider Ali, would be a better choice.
- I disgaree. The dead body of Tipu Sultan is the most cherised sight the Mangalorean Catholic can ever have. It was only after his death, that the Mangalorean Catholics were freed form his brutal captivity. The Image is very much related. It speaks of the freedom of Mangalorean Catholics. Even, the section starts with the Battle of Seingapatam and death of Tipu. The British and modern era speaks only of prosperity. We cannot have images of Tipu and Haidar, because they are extremely hated by the Mangalorean Catholics. An Image of Tipu and Haidar is fine in the Post-migration era and captivity section, not in the British section. Kensplanet (talk) 10:23, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We are not talking about "liking or dislike" by a certain community, I has speaking about encyclopaedic value. Any way, your choice.--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 12:34, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:MangaloreanCatholicDistribution.JPG: references? and a key on img descrip page needed, Why is Bhutan, Nepal, Bangladesh shown in dark blue? Why are they not removed, if not revelant

--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 07:10, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Sanfy

Request move to Mangalorean Konkani Catholics, as the number of Tulu speakers are more the Konkanis in South Canara. I you wish to keep the same name you will have to mention the History of the Mangalorean Tulu speaking Catholics, their Culture, organizations, Notable personalities etc. Because you are only writing about the Konkani speaking Konkani Catholics. Mangalorean Konkani speaking Catholics and not Mangalorean Tulu speaking Catholics. I hope you now that Mangalorean Tulu speaking Catholics also come under the Mangalorean Catholics article.

There are no Tulu Catholics in South Canara. There are only Tulu Protestants, and they are known as Mangalorean Protestants. In the very rarest of rare cases, the recent and the old converts to Roman Catholicism have all been assimilated into Konkani stock and culture. The Tulu speaking people do not usually convert to Roman Catholicism since they will be outnumbered by Konkani speaking people and face isolation. They are known to convert only to Protestantism. Ofcourse Tulu-speaking people are natives of Mangalore, whereas Konkanis are migrants, and are much more than them. Kensplanet (talk) 14:08, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Consider Goa. There is tremendous amount of migration to Goa from different parts of India. Catholics speaking different languages from all over India have been migrating to Goa in large numbers. In fact, Malyali Catholics from Kerala form the second largest group after Konkani Catholics in Goa. Does that mean you start considering Malayalam as the Goan mothertongue. And what about the Marathi Catholics in Goa. It doesn't mean you create articles like Goan Konkani Catholics, Goan Marathi Catholics and Goan Malayali Catholics. Kensplanet (talk) 14:14, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I hope the above argument with respect to Goa makes more sense to you. The Mangalorean Catholics are known to be only Konkani speakers as per popular culture. For all other Catholics in South Canara (if they are present), let them create their own articles like Mangalorean Tulu Catholics, Mangalorean Malayali Catholics, Mangalorean Marathi Catholics etc..However Mangalorean Catholics will speak only of Konkani-speaking Catholics. Kensplanet (talk) 14:23, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by llywrch

I don't know if you have any control over this, Kensplanet, but the illustration "Mangalorean catholic migration.JPG" has a blurry look to it, & would be much helped with a proper touch-up. -- llywrch (talk) 19:16, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]