Wikipedia:Peer review/Manchester City F.C./archive1

Manchester City F.C.

Article about a top division football (soccer) club from England. I've been making gradual improvements to this article for about as long as I've been wikiing, and would appreciate any comments, particularly from non-football fans. It could probably do with a few fresh pairs of eyeballs for copyediting too. For comparison, Arsenal F.C. and IFK Göteborg are FAs about football clubs. I realise the article could do with a photo of the team in action, and I'm looking into it. Oldelpaso 15:57, 22 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Good writing I think, and good references/notes, so my list is just minor bits here and there:

Intro - Decide if Manchester City is singular or plural - both 'is' and 'play' are used (only took notice in intro). Links to and short descriptions of the leagues and cups won for people not familiar with English football. Current player names listed doesn't give any info, unless comparing the many foreign players to the "English triumvirate" of old (perhaps not that relevant compared to most other Premiership clubs, though)?
History - Needs subsection headers. Explanation/mention that the Second Division was the 2nd league - I know it's obvious but it could be confused for the current Football League Two. What is the Revie Plan? The sentence "first ever European trophy winners to be relegated to the third tier of English football" is confusing whether it is "third tier" or "english" that is the focus, move "English" forward in the sentence. FA Premier League needs to be mentioned in the history section, preferably a paragraph on the new league system in 1992 and in which division/league that left Man City. Minor details on the stadiums moved to "Stadium" section; i.e Commonwealth Games 2002 (duplicate info), and that it is on a lease contract. From "Their rise was rapid; from being [...]" and the rest of that paragraph could be moved to intro to explain the general situation of the club in the past 5 years or so. Move the QPR goal situation to its place in history or maybe as a part of the "supporters" section, incorporated into a paragraph on how the club is perceived?
Misc - Update player squad (or the update date at least), perhaps sort managers like the players - it just seems so long with a straightforward list from 1889 to present. Links to competitions in honours section might be good too, and the new/old format mentioned in honours should be properly explained, perhaps in a footnote (see Arsenal FC).

Finally, the lore around here (Denmark) is that while United might be the popular club on the world market, City is the club of people from Manchester - is there any truth to that, and can any sober sources be found on that subject? Poulsen 18:07, 22 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments.

Intro: Hopefully I've caught and changed all the instances of the singular to the plural. I've added links to the competitions, but I think descriptions might be excessive or offtopic. I'll look at adding a couple of sentences in the History section where appropriate. I've jettisoned the bit about current players, you're right in saying it doesn't add anything.
History: subsections added. I've changed the wording in the second paragraph to hopefully make the level of the Second Division clearer. I created a stub on the Revie Plan and linked it. Changed the word order to first ever European trophy winners to be relegated to English football's third tier, is that an improvement? The Premier League is already mentioned: City were founder members of the Premier League upon its creation in 1992.... Duplication of stadium details removed. I'll have to think a bit more about what to do with the last subsection.
Misc: I've moved the list of managers to a new article List of Manchester City F.C. managers, and only kept a couple of notable ones, in the syle of the players. The squad and date is now up to date, and the competitions have been linked to. Footnote explaining the division name changes added.

I think there's truth in the statement that City is the club of people form Manchester, but then I'm biased ;-). I'll look for a reasonably NPOV source, but I expect that most sources will be heavily biased one way or the other. Oldelpaso 20:31, 22 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

About the English third tier thing, maybe the sentence "when they became the first English winners of a European trophy to be relegated to the third tier of English(or national) football." The thing is to establish early in the sentence that it is only counting English clubs, not the rest of Europe, hope I'm not too nitpicky.. Come to think twice on the United vs. City thing, maybe I read it in Peter Schmeichel's biography - I'll check it when I get the chance (in couple of days). Poulsen 20:52, 22 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I found a reference to a university report investigating where City and United fans are from at Manchester United F.C. of all places, and incorporated it into the supporters section. Oldelpaso 21:29, 22 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Generally, it's good. A few things:

Intro is a bit too specific - should be more general rather than mentioning specific players etc., who should be in the History section.
Needs a bit of copyediting - a little too much use of the passive voice when the active would be better. I've done a quick one for style, will do another one in due course for grammar and wording.
More on the club's rivalry with Man United? I know Manchester derby exists but surely it warrants more than a single line in this article too.
No mention of Denis Law and his goal sending down United?
Having said that, history is just about nudging the limit for an article, so if you're going to add a significant amount I would suggest splitting it off.
Ballet on Ice - why was it called that?
Use "crest" (which is the logo in general) as opposed to "badge" (which is the logo when it appears on shirts).
Wearing the city's coat of arms at Cup Finals - interesting. When did this tradition start/whose idea was it? Qwghlm 20:43, 22 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

After adding suggested parts to the History section I'll transfer it to History of Manchester City F.C. and figure out which bits to keep in the main article, no point delaying the inevitable. Expanding the bit about the coat of arms may require a trip to the library, I'll see if I can find anything. The Ballet on Ice would be best illustrated by a photo, but the chances of finding a copyright free one are close to nil. Oldelpaso 21:29, 23 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Intro:I'd expand this to three paragraphs and have some more on the club's history here. The "known for their loyalty and good humour bit" looks like it could do with a source, but then my bias on this subject is well known :-)

History: It looks better with the subsections, but if you're thinking of putting this onto FAC I'd merge the first two as the people on there like a good whinge about articles with too many subsections. You'll get similar complaints about the Colours and badge section as well, so if you can find a way to expand or merge it it might be worth doing so. The 1999-present section could be better: I don't see why a 9th place finish and an own goal against QPR need mentioning - there must be something more notable to write about? File:Yemen flag large.png CTOAGN (talk) 05:15, 23 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

re the last paragraph of the history section: I want to keep some mention of City's reputation for unpredictability and shooting themselves in the foot, but it doesn't fit easily in either the History or Supporters sections. Oldelpaso 21:35, 23 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Finally got rid of the paragraph by porting a sentence into the supporters section and dumping the rest. Oldelpaso 20:43, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

User:Oldelpaso, who responded to the American football peer review, has asked me to take a look at this article. I have to point out that when it comes to soccer articles, I don't have the perspective of a typical American. I understand phrases like "four points clear at the top of the table" because I lived in Europe and have read about European soccer on Wikipedia. However, that phrase would not make sense to most Americans. I don't think that's necessarily a problem, because this is not a "basic-level" article like American football should be. There is one Anglicism I might change, though: in the U.S., "silverware" means what you call "cultery." It looks a little funny to see it used to mean "trophies."

I think the article is pretty solid. I have touched up the grammar a bit. I would put the second sentence in the past simple tense. Also, the sentence that begins with "In the 1950s, a City team..." is grammatically confusing. On the plus side, I love the phrase "despite its melancholic theme is belted out with gusto as though it were a heroic anthem."

The last paragraph in the "1999 to present" section is probably misplaced, as it discusses pre-1999 events. I also agree that there should be more info on the rivalry with "Man U." I know, for example, that in Glasgow, soccer allegiances often correspond to religion. Do certain types of people support each of the Manchester teams?

Only two questions came to me in reading the article:

Are West Gorton and Ardwick in Manchester?
Why was Marsh a "crowd-pleaser" if he wasn't any good?

Mwalcoff 23:58, 23 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Qwghlm and CTOAGN - I've split the History to History of Manchester City F.C., I perhaps now need to condense it some more in the main article, and rewrite 1999-present. I've not found much to expand the colours and crest section yet, though I've not yet had the opportunity to go to the library. Mwalcoff - I've made changes for all the points you raised. Oldelpaso 20:43, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]