Wikipedia:Peer review/Julian of Norwich/archive1

Julian of Norwich

I've listed this article for peer review because i would like to take the article forward to become a FA.

Thanks, Amitchell125 (talk) 15:15, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Comments from Tim riley

Booking my place. From a first canter through I can't see much to quibble about, but will be back after a close perusal. Tim riley talk 20:33, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Not much from me: this is a top-notch article, beautifully written and a delight (and an education) to read. All I can come up with by way of quibbles are these:

• Lead

• She wrote the best known surviving book – I get in a tangle with hyphens, but I think you want one here: it was not the best of the known surviving books but the surviving book that was known best. So, I think, "best-known".
• her life prior to her becoming an anchoress – plain words might be better: "her life before becoming an anchoress". Quite apart from following Fowler in preferring "before" to "prior to", it is possibly better to avoid "prior" in that sense in an article about monastic times with Priors all over the place.
• influential in her own lifetime – do we need the "own"?

• Background

• later executed by Henry le Despenser after his peasant army was overwhelmed – the "his" means Litster I think but it isn't 100% clear: better to have Litster's surname repeated rather than "his", perhaps?
• advocated reform of the Catholic Church – isn't "Catholic" a touch anachronistic (or parachronistic – I always forget which is which)? Until the Reformation the Church was just the Church.
• St Giles' Hospital – strange possessive plural. St Giles's would be more usual (and would reflect the pronunciation). If yours is the normal rendition, fine, but I just mention the point.
• mainly generated from 'livings' – oughtn't this to be in double quotes according to our manual of style?

• St Julian's Church

• No hermits or anchorites existed in Norwich – might this flow more smoothly as "there were no hermits or anchorites in Norwich"?
• much-reduced in height – I don't think you want a hyphen here.

• Information available

• Almost nothing about Julian's life is known – you go on to give us quite a lot of vouched-for information about her life: "almost nothing" seems rather an overstatement.
• 20 March 1393/4 – the MoS calls for en-dashes rather than slashes for date ranges. If it is unclear if the year was 1393 or 1394, perhaps it might be better to say so plainly.

It was an Old Style/New Style thing, so the year is now only given in the New Style. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:19, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

• possibly the first autobiography – not sure we need a blue link here.

• Visions

• last rites of the Catholic Church – again, not sure "Catholic" is wanted here.
• a series of 15 visions of Jesus, and a sixteenth the following night – the mix of numerals and words for the numbers looks a bit odd here.
• a golden age of mysticism – a touch of WP:EDITORIAL here unless you have citation for "golden age".

• Revelations of Divine Love

• Bibliothèque nationale de France in Paris … the British Library – if naming the location of one, then perhaps name the other, or neither.
• Julian's shorter work, which may have been written not long after Julian's visions – perhaps "her" rather than a second "Julian's" here?
• published by Reverend Dundas Harford – the Reverend, please!

• Theology

• Julian emphasized – unexpected –ize formation in an otherwise –ise article.
• Defense of St Birgitta – just checking that the American spelling is appropriate here.

I've gone for the original name in Latin (which has a 's' of course). Amitchell125 (talk) 08:36, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

• ... so she is not currently listed – sorry to be pernickety, but I am old enough to have been taught that "so" is not a conjunction in formal English, and needs "and" before it.
• equivalent canonization … full canonization process – more unexpected –ize formations.

That is really all I can manage by way of nitpicking. This is a cracker of an article and has FA written all over it, in my view. Please ping me when you take it to FAC. – Tim riley talk 23:06, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Many thanks for your comments Tim riley, now all addressed. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:41, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Comments by Zetana

I will post some comments shortly, as I am reading through. Stay tuned! Zetana (talk) 03:30, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Looks good overall, I just have some minor prose comments. I didn't have feedback for all the sections so I skip around a bit. Zetana (talk) 04:09, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Lede

• Julian's writings emerged from obscurity in 1901... transcribed and published with notes by Grace Warrack, since when many translations have been made. The underlined part threw me for a loop when I first read it, I think something like ...transcribed and published with notes by Grace Warrack; many translations have been made since reads slightly better. The "since when" part is what confuses me.

Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 12:42, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Background

• Where these churches had an anchorite cell... suggest wikilinking "anchorite" here, as it's the first occurrence in the body (aside from the lede).

Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 12:45, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Life

Visions

• According to Julian's book Revelations of Divine Love, at the age of 30, and when she was perhaps an anchoress already, Julian fell seriously ill. Suggest a rewording to something like According to Julian's book Revelations of Divine Lore, she fell seriously ill at the age of 30, when she was perhaps an anchoress already.

Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 12:48, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

• An anchoress from at least the 1390s, she was, according to the British historian Henrietta Leyser, the greatest English anchoress. I don't have an issue with this statement, however it seems a bit out of place in this subsection because it seems more like it ought to be in "Theology" or "Legacy" (more of an analytical statement on Julian's influence rather than a biographical detail) However you decide on this point, I think at least that the An anchoress from at least the 1390s... part should be in "Life as an anchoress" since it's directly relevant there.

I agree, text moved to 2 new locations. Amitchell125 (talk) 12:55, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Personal life

• It has been speculated that she was educated as a young girl by the Benedictine nuns of Carrow Abbey, as it is known that a school for girls existed there during her childhood. I think you can remove the underlined part, as it's a bit redundant.

Done.

Revelations of Divine Lore

• I would change this section's name to "Writings" or perhaps "Works" since it deals with not just Revelations but also her Long Text and Short Text, so why change the title?.

N Not done—R of DL consists only of her Long Text and Short Text, and scholars know of nothing else written by her. Amitchell125 (talk) 13:00, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

• According to Leyser, Julian was "beloved in the 20th century by theologians and poets alike". I think the section flows a little better if you moved this sentence down slightly, perhaps to after The book introduced most early 20th century readers to Julian's writings., as that paragraph fits thematically with the sentence (20th c.), i personally prefer {{tq|Julian's writings are unique...} as the starting sentence to the section.

Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 13:50, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

• I know you already described the Long Text in "Visions", but a little more description about it (length, ~probably date of writing) would be helpful here, even if it ends up duplicating the information a bit.

Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 14:00, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

• Is there any information on how long the Short Text is?

Information added. Amitchell125 (talk) 14:21, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Theology

• Monastic and university authorities might not... would suggest adding "contemporary" > Contemporary monastic and university authorities might not... just to extra-clarify it was the authorities from Julian's time.

Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 14:23, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Legacy

Her cell

• suggest renaming section to Julian's cell.

Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 14:25, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

• another duplication suggestion, "St Julian's Church" says the cell was demolished following the dissolution of the monasteries in the 1530s, and I think it would be helpful to also include it in this section.

Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 14:29, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Literature

• Is there a particular reason why you single out the Russian translation?

it slipped in accidentally I think. Removed. Amitchell125 (talk) 14:31, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Overall it looks great, best of luck on the FA. Zetana (talk) 04:09, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

@Zetana: comments now addressed, thanks! Amitchell125 (talk) 14:34, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Looks good! If you have not considered it already, I think a GOCE copyedit may help tighten up the prose.

Agreed, now listed for a copy-edit. Thanks for the suggestion. Amitchell125 (talk) 17:55, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Ah, I would probably close this peer review if you request a copyedit, or if you would like to see if anyone else wishes to comment, to wait on the GOCE reqeust, both probably shouldn't be open at the same time. Zetana (talk) 21:13, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Re: Revelations of Divine Lore, I was confused upon reading as I thought RDL was based primarily on Julian's Long Text, and her Short Text was a different work, but the section deals with RDL, the Long Text, and the Short Text. I went to the RDL page and read The book now commonly known as Revelations of Divine Love was written in manuscript form by Julian in two versions, now known as the Long Text and the Short Text, both of which contain an account of each of her revelations., which I think could be included here to help clarify.

I also re-read the "Visions" section and am slightly confused by the paragraph beginning with ...when she was perhaps an anchoress already and then ending with It is possible she was a lay person living at home when her visions occurred..., is there a way to group these two together? Zetana (talk) 23:48, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Now sorted, many thanks for your very helpful comments, Zetana. I'm now closing the review. Amitchell125 (talk) 10:49, 14 October 2021 (UTC)