Wikipedia:Peer review/Joey Barton/archive1

Joey Barton

The article has undergone a major overhaul recently, with a lot of text and references being added. As far as I can see, it goes by the Manual of Style, at least more than it did before. I have been told it could have now reached A class on the quality scale and with this in mind I would hope to see it peer reviewed with a view to achieving featured article candidacy.

Any comments would be gratefully appreciated. Sir-Nobby 21:59, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Mattythewhite

Excellent from what I've read so far. Just a few things:

• At the start of the "Senior career" section, it starts straight away with him making his first appearence for the club. It jumps straight from him being a schoolboy to being a professional footballer in the Premier League - theres no explanation for his becoming a footballer. Did he come through the youth ranks, was he spotted by a scout etc?

Info added on Everton academy, YTS contract at Man City, his wage and commute.

• References should be placed after punctuation.

Done.

• Endashes (see WP:DASH) should be used for seasons and scorelines.

Done.

• Perhaps cutting down in the "External links" section. See WP:EL.

I think 5 is a good amount and they are all necessary.

Thats all really. From what I can tell, this article can go all the way. Mattythewhite 20:22, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments Matty. I'll start making those improvements now. Sir-Nobby 13:33, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Just another thing. There appears to be some proseline in the text, e.g. sentences starting with "On January 1, 1900" for example. Best to incorporate the date elsewhere. Mattythewhite 21:10, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

OK thanks. Do you think you could help with that if you get a chance? Sir-Nobby 21:36, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Done. Mattythewhite 21:28, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

As has been stated in the article, Barton has played for the England under-21's. There is nothing of this in the infobox, but I think I've got his stats for them on playerhistory. Seems as if he's made 2 appearances with 0 goals for them.

Whilst looking for his U21 stats on theFA website I found a link that said he had scored in a match v Portugal, so 2 (0) can't be his stats. Thanks for looking anyway. It might be a case of having to read through reports on U21 matches that are on the FA's website since Barton was called up, and counting which ones he took part in and how many he scored. Sir-Nobby 11:02, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

And would this be sufficient as a reference for the 2003-04 Young player of the year award, or is it just an unofficial internet poll? Mattythewhite 22:01, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

There's nothing that suggests it is unofficial and I know that SWP won the POTY that season as well so it gives the right information. A lot of club's settle these awards by letting people vote online and the website looks reliable, so I think it can be used as a reference. Good find, Matty. Sir-Nobby 11:02, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

For an unofficial site its pretty reliable, but as I have an official club source I'll replace it with that. The MCFC player of the year awards are decided by a byzantine system in which supporters club branches have the largest say. Oldelpaso 09:01, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

By the look of it, Image:Joey Barton freekick.JPG can't be used as the copyright given on flickr does't allow it to be used freely. See this. Mattythewhite 22:51, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Bole2

Haven't read the whole article yet but so far I have only found a few minor things.

• No controversy section?

Controversial incidents that were in some way related to his football career (Tandy, training ground, Dabo fights) are in the Career section, controversies with no relation to football (breaking pedestrian's leg, fight with taxi driver) are in Outside of Football section.

Yes I wasn't saying that they weren't mention. I'm say that they should be in a controversy section. Buc 06:03, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I know you weren't saying they weren't worth a mention. I explained why they are in the sections they are in.

• "Outside of football" section would be better named "Off the pitch activity"

I have decided to stay with "Outside of football" as this is what Gilberto Silva's section that gives the same info has been named.

It's possible the Gilberto Silva section does in fact talk about him "Outside of football" (wouldn't know, haven't read it), but this "Outside of football" section clearly doesn't. Buc 06:03, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I think it does. Everything mentioned in this section is Barton's involvement with non-footballing events. It includes the same info as Gilberto Silva's section - participation in charities, social life etc. That can be described as outside of football.

• Ref #44, 49, 50, 53, 57, 60, 65 and 68 not dated.

Done

• Odd that such a young player has a "Senior career" section and no "Early career" section

Not sure where exactly to seperate his early career with senior career. If anything he is probably still in his early career, maybe just moving in to senior...

• More about his playing career in the lead.

I think the most significant moments in his playing career have been mentioned.

• Added some citation tag where I think they are needed

Citations added/wording changed where needed.

• Very sudden start to the "Senior career" section. What team is he playing for?

Made clear what team he is playing for. More info on his time in the academy/reserves would be useful if any can be found, although I don't think any more is desperately needed.

• A few POV issues such as "rash tackle", "impressive form" and "altercation effectively ended Barton's time", there could be more.

Changed 'rash tackle' to 'hacking' - as described by the BBC in the reference. His form led to an England call-up so I think it's safe to refer to it as impressive - it impressed enough for him to get called-up. The Dabo incident did effectively end his Man City career - he was suspended from playing for the rest of the season and then made available for transfer a few weeks after the incident.

• "Barton has since been bailed until July." is written in the present tence.

Changed to "Barton has been bailed until August", as it was extended. Reference added.

Still present tence. Buc 06:03, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Because he is still on bail. I will change it when the bail finishes.

• No Honours section, but then again I don't think he's won anything.

No, not yet atleast.

This looks like a very impressive article (as much as I hate the subject). But it might be a idea to wait for a bit before nominating it comdidering he's just changed clubs. Or at the very least nominate for GA status first. Buc 15:01, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments Buc. Sir-Nobby 21:46, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

The Rambling Man

Hi, late once again to the party, but some comments, hopefully some of them useful...

• Do we really need to qualify that he's a football (soccer) player? First time I've seen this - I've always just piped that with footballer so at least the wikilink is right and it reads nicely.

Agreed that it reads better as 'footballer', but the Gilberto Silva lead describes him as a 'football (soccer) player' so I would guess that's what was decided as the best description, probably because 'footballer' could refer to many different sports. Sir-Nobby 11:38, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I believe "soccer" is used in the Gilberto Silva article because he is Brazilian and therefore may be referred to as a "soccer" player. I think you would be fine pipe linking on an article on Barton. Dave101→talk  14:58, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

• Not keen on "Man City", would stick with either City or the whole thing.

Done. The club is now consistently referred to as 'City' throughout the article (apart from when it's necessary to refer to them by their full name). Sir-Nobby 11:36, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

• "...his time in the first team expanding over a period of five years..." - not sure what this is really getting at, is it that he became more of a regular in the team over that time? It's not clear.

Changed to "...his time in the first team gradually increased in regularity over a period of five years..." Is this clearer? Sir-Nobby 11:36, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

• Update the "correct as of" in the infobox.

Updated. Sir-Nobby 11:36, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

• A tiny bit lineprose in the Early life section, avoid the one-sentence paragraphs.

Moved sentences to the one-sentence paragraph. Sir-Nobby 11:36, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

• Move ref [1] next to Huyton to end of sentence to comply with WP:CITE.

Done. Sir-Nobby 11:40, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

• "He use to travel ..." used to?

Changed to "used to travel". Sir-Nobby 11:40, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

• "Euro qualifiers" - expand and/or wikilink to assist the non-expert understand this.

Expanded to 2004 European Championship qualifiers with link added. Sir-Nobby 11:45, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

• "rash tackle" - a bit POV, either find a decent citation which you can quote or tone it more neutrally.

Changed to "Barton sparked a ten-man brawl in a friendly match against Doncaster Rovers on 25 July 2004 after "hacking" an oppostion player." Hacking is how the BBC described it in the citation. Sir-Nobby 11:53, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

• Not mandated (or at least I don't believe it is) but I prefer citations in numerical order so [18][9] could be [9][18].

Done. You're right, it does look tidier. Sir-Nobby 11:58, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

• Move ref [19] per WP:CITE.

Done. Sir-Nobby 12:04, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

• "Such as a typical box-to-box player..." - difficult reading.

Agreed, that bit does need re-wording but I'm not sure how. Any suggestions? Sir-Nobby 12:53, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

• Move ref [57] per WP:CITE.

Done. Sir-Nobby 12:04, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

• "Outside of football" section is lineprose - it needs to be flowed better, and move refs [68] and [19] in that section per WP:CITE.

Moved refs. I think I'm going to need help with the prose in this article. Sir-Nobby 12:08, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Good level of citation, the prose needs some work before I'd consider FA, but this is most definitely GA + quality. Good work. The Rambling Man 07:00, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the input RM. I think the main thing that needs attention now is the prose. It would be good if someone could help with that. Sir-Nobby 15:44, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Oldelpaso

I'll go through more thoroughly when I get the opportunity, but a few things I noticed from a quick scan:

• There are one or two references which do not appear to be from reliable sources, such as the refernces to "footballers are idiots" blog and soccerfiesta.net. References to red-tops such as the Sun and the People should be used sparingly.

I have replaced the blog with a more reliable source (Sky Sports), but the only other sources that support the claim he has dated Amanda Harrington are in Spanish. Can these still be used? Sir-Nobby 16:35, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Depends on the nature of the source. If its from something like Marca that's fine, but if its the Spanish equivalent of Popbitch then no. While sources in English are preferred, there's no issue with using another language if that information is unavailable in English. Oldelpaso 10:36, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I've found this, which looks like a bit more of reliable source to me. What do you think? Sir-Nobby 12:27, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

• Not keen on the blockquotes, but that's probably personal preference.

I think it is just down to preference. They contain useful information so I think they should be kept. The first one gives the reader a pretty good idea about what it was like growing up in Huyton, the second one was a public appeal for his brother to come forward to the police Sir-Nobby 16:35, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

• There's a big difference between 10 GCSEs A-C and 10 GCSEs A-G. If, as is likely, it cannot be determined which is the case here, it might be better to remove it.

Fair point (that there is a difference), but it's better to have at least some mention of his qualifications than none at all. If any info on what his GCSE grades were can be found it would be helpful, but if not then I don't see the point in removing it all together. Sir-Nobby 16:35, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

• Parts of his on-field career could be fleshed out some more. I'll see what I can get from my MCFC books & programmes.

Thanks Sir-Nobby 16:35, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

• The Style of play section describes a more attacking Joey Barton than the one I know - he started as an out and out defensive midfielder; goals are a more recent addition to his game. His passing is not generally regarded as one of his strengths - the reference given is not a glowing assessment of his passing ability, I'd read the context as "there's more to his game than tackling". His goalscoring could do with some explanation - while he was top scorer for City last season, it was in a season where the club broke records for low scoring. It is also worth mentioning that in the past couple of seasons he took penalties and set-pieces for Manchester City. Again, I'll look at my reference material and see what I can find. Oldelpaso 19:22, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Admittedly I haven't seen him play much, so I was just really going by information given in the references. I think it might still be worth mentioning that he has finished top scorer before, even if City's scoring rates were particularly low that season. Sir-Nobby 16:35, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

The thing to be vigilant about when writing a section like this is to avoid weasel words. Its easy to slip into phrasing like "some say", "many fans" and the like. Oldelpaso 10:36, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm not entirely sure if there are any weasel words in this article. Could you help? Sir-Nobby 12:27, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

• After taking another look, the main issue I see beyond those already mentioned is one of prose standard (1a on the featured article criteria). Take the sentence He became a first player for City and his time in the first team gradually increased in regularity over a period of five years, which saw him make over 150 appearances for the club in total. from the lead: aside from the obvious omitted "team" at the start, we have
  • "his time in the first team gradually increased in regularity over a period of five years" - I know what this is trying to say - an attempt to state that the rate at which he made first team appearances increased - but it comes across as rather clunky, and needs rephrasing.
  • "which saw him make" is somewhat passive, simply stating "making over 150 appearances" is clearer and simpler.
  • the words "in total" are redundant, the meaning of the sentence is the same without them.

I know that copyediting your own prose can be difficult, often the most challenging part of getting an article to FA. You might find Tony1's advice useful in this regard. If you need any help in this area, don't hesitate to ask. Oldelpaso 10:36, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes it looks like the prose is the main thing that needs to be improved. I think I'll leave it to others as it probably goes beyond my writing skills. Thanks for the help, it's much appreciated. Sir-Nobby 12:27, 5 August 2007 (UTC)