Wikipedia:Peer review/History of the World Wide Web/archive1

History of the World Wide Web

Rewrote it extensively. It used to look like https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=History_of_the_World_Wide_Web&oldid=1067582315 . Thanks, Sean Brunnock (talk) 19:28, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

Comments from Rublov

To be honest, I think it was better before. The sections were organized chronologically rather than topically, which makes more sense for a "History of" article. The rewritten version has lots of very short paragraphs and no images. The original version was perhaps too detailed in places and sorely needed an update for recent history, but these problems could have been dealt with in situ instead of rewriting the article. Ruбlov (talk • contribs) 14:22, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

The article starts at 1990 and ends at 2021, so it's mostly chronological.

Microsoft, the W3C, and the WHATWG were all moving in different directions. I don't think it would make sense to try to combine all of their stories in one section. It would be like trying to write a history of WW2 by combining the European and Pacific theaters. — Sean Brunnock (talk) 14:41, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

I would suggest having explicitly chronological top-level sections like before and dividing those into topical subsections as necessary. Ruбlov (talk • contribs) 15:40, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

The old time divisions seem odd to me. 1980-1991? Why 1980? 1991-1995 and 1995-2004- Why is 1995 listed twice? What happened in 2004? It's obvious to me that the author is trying neatly divide the history of the web into chronological sections like you want, but you can't do that. There's too many overlapping developments.

The old article didn't mention major developments like SSL, CGI, JavaScript, XML, Chrome, or smartphones. On the other hand, it claimed that Robin Li invented Google's PageRank algorithm years before Google did. I don't understand why you prefer it. Sean Brunnock (talk) 19:40, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

I haven't done an exhaustive review of either version of the article. I'm just pointing out what to me is glaring about the new version. For one, I don't understand why you removed so much information. The Web started to enter everyday use during 1993 to 1994. — this is a perfectly good sentence, with a citation. Why take it out? The old version had a discussion of new compression algorithms and how they helped bring images and videos onto the web. Maybe it went into a bit too much detail, but it shouldn't have been removed wholesale. The dot-com bubble is only mentioned in passing in the new version. Crucial terms and companies like "blog", "Facebook", "Twitter", and "YouTube" are omitted entirely. And it's hard to read because of the choppy, single-sentence paragraphs and lack of narrative flow.

I don't mean to be combative, but I honestly think you should revert and try to incorporate your new information — which is good and needed — into the existing structure of the article. Ruбlov (talk • contribs) 22:29, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

The compression algorithms you're referring to are JPEG and MPEG. They were developed independently of the Web and shouldn't even be in there.

The Web started to enter everyday use during 1993 to 1994. That's the sort of writing you'd find in a high school essay.

I don't understand why you consider "Twitter" to be crucial, but not Apache, XML, or JavaScript. — Sean Brunnock (talk) 00:08, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

I have a posted a notice at Wikipedia:WikiProject Computing to solicit more opinions. Ruбlov (talk • contribs) 17:38, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Comments from Artem

The biggest issue I can see there that almost all article is WP:PROSELINE. F.e. in 'Chrome' each line starts with a year: in 2008, in 2009, ...

'See also' after the section doesn't make sense in my view: why should I read about npm or Express.js after reading about Chrome? For somebody who's not software engineer these names wouldn't ring a bell, and npm is not mentioned anywhere in the text.

'Mobile' section is also just a collection of sentences, not a history of anything 'Mobile'. 'WHATWG' is just confusing.

So, to be honest, I'd also prefer previous version: history is better seen with some chronological order, not just 'Google', 'Microsoft', 'Mobile', etc. Old version was poorly sourced and not in a great shape, but you could read from the start and see what was developed when and where we are now. And in current version I would just be confused after reading it, without understanding timelines that are necessary to a 'History of' article. Artem.G (talk) 09:38, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

No, you could not read the old version "from the start and see what was developed".

The old version contained false information, irrelevant information, and didn't even mention major milestones such as JavaScript, XML, or mobile phones.

Did you actually read the old version? — Sean Brunnock (talk) 11:28, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

I didn't say the old version was ideal, but at least it tried to be chronological. With current version you've got just a bunch of company names, some underdeveloped sections like 'Mobile', and totally confusing 'WHATWG'. So no, I didn't read the old article thoroughly, but I looked through the same way I did with current version. Did you actually read my comment above, and not just the last sentence? Artem.G (talk) 11:43, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

The old version of the article had references to a fictional story from 1909; the GPS coordinates to Tim Berners-Lee's office; details about a picture of Les Horribles Cernettes; a compression algorithm from 1973; and a claim that someone named Robin Li actually invented Google's pagerank algorithm. There is nothing about JavaScript, Apache, or XML.

You're complaining about odd details like the "See Also" line in one section.

The new version starts with events in 1990 and ends at 2021. It's definitely chronological.

The old version was simply horrible. It's why I rewrote it. It's not possible to argue that it was better. — Sean Brunnock (talk) 12:18, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

The old version isn't even in chronological order. It mentions a 1946 story and then a 1909 story. (Why are these even mentioned?) The section labelled 1991–1995 contains details about an algorithm from 1973. One paragraph talks about EBay launching 1995 and the next talks about browsers from 1992. You can't possibly say that that makes more sense. — Sean Brunnock (talk) 12:25, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Comments on revised version

@Whizz40: Here are my comments on the version that you've been working on:

• Lead
  • "websites for everyday use" linking to List of websites founded before 1995 is a bit of a MOS:EASTEREGG.
  • Competition between web browsers ensued which was dominated by Netscape Navigator, Internet Explorer, Firefox, Google Chrome, Opera and Safari. — Safari (2003) and Firefox (2002) were a later generation than Netscape Navigator (1994) and Internet Explorer (1995), and Google Chrome was later still (2008), so this is chronologically misleading.
  • Web pages were initially conceived as structured documents... — The first three sentences of this paragraph feel out of place as it is sandwiched between chronological accounts of the development of the Web.
  • The lead should have a lot more information about the 2000s and 2010s.
  • Note that per WP:CITELEAD, citations are not required in the lead for facts that are cited in the body.
• Background
  • As the Internet grew through the 1980s... — It would be helpful here to briefly introduce what the Internet is and how it is different from the Web.
• 1989–1993: Origins and development
  • the universal document identifier (UDI), later known as uniform resource locator (URL) and uniform resource identifier (URI) — a URL is a type of URI, so for simplicity and clarity I'd omit the mention of URI.
  • a key player in the extension of SGML ISO 8879:1986 to Hypermedia within HyTime — Jargon-y and unclear.
  • While the read-only goal was met, accessible authorship of web content... — Not sure this should be included here as it covers much later territory chronologically.
  • Subsequently, ViolaWWW became the recommended browser... — Who developed ViolaWWW and why did it replace the other browsers?
  • All of those systems predated the invention of the World Wide Web — If this is so then this subsection ("From Gopher to the WWW") is in the wrong place. But I'm not sure that's true, because the subsection itself says that Gopher was released in 1991, which would make it concurrent with the Web.
  • I think this section is too detailed. I trimmed a bit myself; here are a few more sentences/paragraphs which I think can be deleted:
    • The first web page may be lost...
    • Another example of media confusion occurred...

These are my comments on the first part of the article. I also made some edits while reviewing, in particular to add clean-up tags to problematic references. You can view these edits here. I will review the rest of the article when I have time. Ruбlov (talk • contribs) 13:25, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Thank you Ruбlov. I started to address the points (indicated by strikout above) and will look at the remaining points in due course. Whizz40 (talk) 15:00, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

@Whizz40: Here's my review of the rest of the article:

• 1993–1995: The Web goes public, early growth
  • In July 1993, the Wharton School published one of the first collections of PDFs... — Trivial?
  • many notable websites were already active that foreshadowed or inspired today's most popular services — This part does not appear to be supported by the source.
  • Although the two terms are sometimes conflated in popular use... — This should probably be covered earlier in the article.
  • This section bounces between commercial (e.g., Netscape Navigator, AOL) and technical (e.g., compression algorithms) topics; could be organized better.
• 1995–2004: Commercialization, dot-com boom and bust, aftermath
  • By August 2001, the directory model had begun to give way to search engines — Awkward because the previous sentence already mentioned search engines.
  • Dot-com bubble deserves more coverage. What were some notable companies? Why did the bubble burst? How much effect did the bubble have on the development and popularization of the Web?
• 2004–present: Ubiquity, Web 2.0, Web3
  • The video-sharing website YouTube... — This sentence is not integrated well.
  • Instagram was founded quite a while after Friendster, MySpace, Facebook and YouTube.
  • The idea for Wikipedia was based on user-edited content. — Another poorly integrated sentence.
  • This section should mention how JavaScript made the development of interactive web applications possible.
  • Also, the increasing use of encrypted connections (HTTPS) which enabled e-commerce and online banking (this is mentioned in the "Browser wars" section).
  • Needless to say, this section needs serious expansion for recent occurrences, probably in a new section. Some topics it should cover:
    • Global expansion of the Web
    • Rise of streaming services like Netflix
    • More coverage of web-based cyberattacks and ransomware
    • Effect of widespread smartphone usage on Web usage
    • Internet culture
• Browser wars
  • This section repeats some information from the previous sections (e.g., the Line Mode Browser, ViolaWWW).
  • I think this section and the two following it should be integrated into the previous chronological sections.

Ruбlov (talk • contribs) 14:08, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Thank you Rublov. I am starting to make changes to address these points. Whizz40 (talk) 07:14, 27 April 2022 (UTC)