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History of Tamil Nadu

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This article on the history of the Tamil Nadu state in south India covers an extensive period of time - from pre history to modern times. Tamil Nadu is an ancient land with very rich culture and history. The length of the article may be a bit larger than that recommended, but I think the subject warrants such a length. I would like to request comments on improving this article further. Thanks - Parthi talk/contribs 10:01, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  1. One thing that immediately strikes out is the possible use of neologisms and POV words in the subtitles. Take "Evolution of Dravidian politics" - does this mean that the politics of the Chola/Pandya years were not "Dravidian?" Titles like "Dawn of History" and "Dark Ages" need to actually be used by historians - must not be individual interpretations of that chunk of history. "Dawn" is especially a bit dramatic - omit please. "East India Company?" Which one? There the title should be "European colonisation." Also, please use only Commonwealth English. Rama's arrow 15:58, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
In the heading 'Evolution of Dravidian politics' the word 'Dravidian' has been deliberately highlighted to note that the exploitation of the Dravidian label was a political move by the Justice party and its off shoots in the early part of the 20th century. I have changed Dawn of history to 'Early history'. Dark age has been used in books on history to denote the lack of information during this period. East India company ihas been deliberately linked to the dab page to denote that all the major players (Dutch, French, English, etc) were in action in Tamil Nadu. - Parthi talk/contribs 20:54, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Shorten the lead, as per WP:LEAD.
  2. The NASA satellite map of South India is not a good first picture - where is the distinction between the Tamil-speaking areas and the rest of South India?
I will try and find a suitable replacement. - Parthi talk/contribs 20:54, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Awkward wording, improper sentences: Tamil Nadu provided its share of revolutionaries and martyrs for the Indian independence struggle. - provided its share? Very awkward. An indigenous 'Dravidian' movement arose during the 1930s to demand secession of Tamil Nadu from the rest of India. - the use of indigenuous and Dravidian? Btw, I don't think this should be in the lead, for as far as I know, this demand for independence was from a Dravidian fringe group which did not develop further. As far as I know, the DMK never called for independence. Rama's arrow 16:04, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I have edited the lead para. - Parthi talk/contribs 20:54, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  1. IMO, the entire subsection on the impact of the LTTE insurgency in Sri Lanka needs to go. Granted that this has affected TN, but this can be summarized in a few sentences in the prior "Dravidian politics" section, which is in fact the only uniting feature between TN and the LTTE. Instead of this Sri Lanka insurgency mention, I'd like to see more information on economic development, the AIADMK-DMK election wars, etc - more relevant to TN and not Sri Lanka.
I disagree. The Sri Lankan episode is a major watershed event in the recent history of Tamil Nadu. It is still showing its impact in the politics of that state. - Parthi talk/contribs 20:54, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Sri Lankan conflict subsection

Present: On going ethnic conflict in Sri Lanka resulted in the first Eelam War (1983-87) in 1983, following an ambush by Tamil guerrillas on the Sri Lankan army. The news of the ambush caused widespread outrage and a violent backlash against Tamils in the south of the island resulting in a large numbers of Tamils fleeing to the north, and from there to Tamil Nadu. The sudden appearance of over one hundred thousand displaced, embittered Tamils resulted in a surge of political support from the Dravidian political parties of Tamil Nadu. They exerted pressure on the Indian government to intercede with the Sri Lankan government on behalf of the Sri Lankan Tamil refugees. The two rival Dravidian parties aligned themselves with the corresponding rival groups fighting the Sri Lankan government. The Indian government of Indira Gandhi supported the Tamil cause in Sri Lanka by sponsoring various militant groups. The Indo-Sri Lanka Peace Accord of 1987 resulted in the Indian Peace Keeping Force (IPKF) deployed in the north of Sri Lanka and brought India directly in conflict with LTTE, one of the main Tamil militant groups. The deployment ultimately proved to be a failure and the IPKF was withdrawn in early 1990. Rajiv Gandhi, the Indian Prime Minister during this period was assassinated in May 1991 by an LTTE operative while campaigning in Tamil Nadu. This act and the war between the IPKF and LTTE caused a considerable cooling down of sympathy in the Dravidian parties towards the Sri Lankan Tamil cause.

Problems:

  1. "Ealam War" - is it an official term?
  2. "sudden appearance," "embittered Tamils" - dramatic generalization.
  3. Too much info about the conflict in Sri Lanka as opposed to what was happening in TN.
  4. "Two rival Dravidian parties aligned themselves with corresponding rival groups" - which groups? Awkward sentence and awkward use of "corresponding."

Here is what I'd include: On going ethnic conflict in Sri Lanka large numbers of Tamils fleeing to Tamil Nadu. The plight of Tamil refugees caused a surge of support from Tamil political parties. They exerted pressure on the Indian government to intercede with the Sri Lankan government on behalf of the Sri Lankan Tamil refugees. The then-Indian Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi was assassinated in Give exact date by an LTTE operative for his role in sending Indian peacekeepers to Sri Lanka to disarm the LTTE. This act and the war between the IPKF and LTTE caused a considerable cooling down of sympathy in the Dravidian parties towards the Sri Lankan Tamil cause.

  1. There is no need to go into depth of the conflict in Sri Lanka when an article link is already provided. Stick to what happened in TN in response to the problem in Sri Lanka.
I have made the changes recommended. - Parthi talk/contribs 05:48, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"Dravidian"
  1. Although you are more knowledgeable than me on this subject, I think there is a distinct problem in using the term "Dravidian" for grouping political parties, etc. The term "Dravidian" includes people of all southern states, while this article is solely on TN - a distinction is necessary.
  2. "Dravidian" in political terms is also a POV - Periyar and DMK are pushing for south Indians to be identified as "Dravidians" as a ethno-nationlist argument. Use "Dravidian" to describe historical details on culture, ethnicity and languages, but be careful of its use in political terms. Rama's arrow 18:06, 21 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I have renamed the heading to 'Evolution of regional politics'. I think this removes the emphasis on the Dravidian tag. - Parthi talk/contribs 05:48, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
added 3 fact templates for first half of the article. Could those be taken care of? - Tutmosis 16:02, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Citations added - Parthi talk/contribs 21:56, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I have edited the lead. I'm not sure whether I have fixed the problem. If you can highlight some specific suggestions for improvement, I will incorporate them. Thanks - Parthi talk/contribs 02:29, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments
  1. Kattabomman and Maruthupandiar, who fought against British 50 years before the Sepoy Mutniy should be mentioned
done. - Parthi talk/contribs 05:36, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Chola Empire extended to South East Asia also. Please Use that map
done. - Parthi talk/contribs 05:36, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  1. I have edited a para in the Evolution of Regional Politics  Doctor Bruno  01:15, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I have rewritten the first sentence. Do you think it looks profound enough? ;) - Parthi talk/contribs 09:19, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks :) Tintin (talk) 11:57, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Post-Independence Period

  1. There is no information on socio-economic development, general public life in this section.
  2. An overemphasis is placed on the Dravidian movement, DMK politics. I suggest toning down of language, trimming of the section. Defer more information to the appropriate forks instead of explaining everything here.
  3. Dissolution of the Madras Presidency?
  4. Kaveri dispute?
  5. Development of Chennai? Rama's arrow 19:40, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I have included a few sentences on the socio-economic changes and the dissolution of the Madras Presidency. I have also reduced the extent of the text on the Dravidian politics. I'm not sure whether the Kaveri Dispute or the development of Chennai would be appropriate here. I'm open for any suggestions theough - Parthi talk/contribs 04:23, 3 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just two small suggestions, which you can feel free to ignore if you think they don't add value to the article:

  • In my opinion, the kutavolai (குடவோலை) system merits a mention in the section on the Chola dynasty in mediaeval period. That village officials were actually elected rather than being appointed by the king is unusual enough to make it sufficiently notable to be mentioned in the main article.
  • The sentence "DMK eventually abandoned this secessionist agenda" is a little vague - their secessionist agenda was at the time seen as a significant threat to Indian unity, and the reasons why they abandoned the agenda in my opinion merit inclusion. I suggest rewording it to read "The Tamilisation of the Congress Party in Madras during the late 1950s and the strong pan-Indian emotions whipped up by the Chinese invastion of India in 1962 led to the demand for Dravidistan losing some of its immediacy. Consequently in 1963, when the Sixteenth Amendment to the Constitution of India, precluded secessionist parties from contesting elections, the DMK chose to formally drop its demand for an independent Dravidistan, focusing instead on securing greater functional autonomy within the framework of the Indian Constitution.[1]" (there's a reference included in the text, which you'll find if you view the page source). -- Arvind 15:12, 3 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I have made these changes. I will add a citation for the chola elections today. - Parthi talk/contribs 19:21, 3 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Citations added. - Parthi talk/contribs 21:07, 4 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Meenakshi Temple

Just a minor suggestion for now. The caption under the Meenakshi Temple of Madurai says it was "built by the Nayak king". There are many sources that say the main body of the temple was started by the Pandyas, perhaps in the 13th century, and the inner sanctum of the temple is thought to be much much older still. Perhaps for npov, ...the temple, renovated by the Nayak king or something along those lines? Wubbabubba 09:38, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Caption changed to reflect this suggestion. - Parthi talk/contribs 09:47, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ Hargrave, R.L.: "The DMK and the Politics of Tamil Nationalism", Pacific Affairs, 37(4):396-411 at 396-7.
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