Wikipedia:Peer review/Fred Keenor/archive2

Fred Keenor

Previous peer review

I've listed this article for peer review because I would ideally like to take this to FA status and would like to iron out any issues beforehand. A previous PR was left unanswered and the article has undergone a copyedit from a member of the WP:GOCE since then. Would appreciate any comments thanks, Kosack (talk) 04:49, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Comments by Cas Liber

Looking through....

• He remained with Cardiff until 1931, when an ageing squad had entered a decline that culminated with their relegation to the Third Division South in the 1930–31 season. - the subject change makes this sentence scan oddly. Maybe rejigging the section is needed, such as "He was released by Cardiff at the end of the 1930-31 season, which saw the club relegated to the Third Division South."

• Having established himself on the first team by the time they entered the Football League, Cardiff allowed two of the "holy three", Cassidy and Harvey, to leave the club. - again, the subject switches here. Might be best to split sentences

• Keenor featured for the side in their first-ever Football League fixture,... - sounds a bit vague. If you meant "appeared" just write "appeared" - if he played really well, then say what he did.

• He was at the centre of the attention as the captain - I'd ditch this - let the facts in the following sentence speak for themselves

Thanks for taking a look so quickly. I've fixed the issues you found above, let me know if there are anymore. Kosack (talk) 10:29, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

ok, if you see any other example of commentary, consider removing and let facts speak for themselves. I think there might be a a few more. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:33, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Also, pinging @Eric Corbett, Dweller, and The Rambling Man: as I find that if I don't pick things up first time round I might have a blind spot. I think the guts of the article is fine, just needs some prose smoothing. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:33, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

• I can take a look at this at some point if that would be useful? The Rambling Man (talk) 07:22, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

That'd be fantastic - my eye for detail WRT prose can be patchy at times. I am sure Kosack'd be grateful Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 08:25, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Thanks both, I would definitely be grateful. Kosack (talk) 09:01, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Comments by Eric Corbett

• "... leading the team to success in the 1927 FA Cup Final later in the season, where they defeated Arsenal 1–0". The Cup Final isn't a place, so "where" isn't the right word.
• The third paragraph of the lead shouldn't really start with "He".
• "During his time at Ninian Park ...". we haven't yet been told that Ninian Park is Cardiff City's ground.

Early life

• That he was raised by his father and mother hardly seems worthy of note. I suggest that bit ought to be rewritten.
• "... would later go on to join the board at Cardiff City". These pointless subjunctives always get on my nerves. Why not just "went on to ..."?

Early football career

• "Keenor was invited to attend a trial at Cardiff City by his former school teacher Riden ...". The active voice is almost always better than the passive. Why not "Keenor's former teacher Riden invited ..."?
• "... would leave a lasting impression on him". As before, why not just "left"?

That's it for now, I'll try and look at a bit more later. Eric Corbett 15:21, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

• Given TRM's extensive review below I don't think there's anything worth my adding until those issues are dealt with. Eric Corbett 20:48, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Thanks Eric, I've hopefully fixed the issues you raised above and have made a start on TRM's comments below. Kosack (talk) 21:02, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

First World War

• "... in particularly the Battle of Delville Wood."
• My understanding is that {{cquote}} should only be used for pullout quotes. - Fixed

Return to football

• "... Keenor immediately hoped to resume his playing career". Doesn't seem quite right. What about "hoped to resume his playing career immediately"?

Eric Corbett 16:06, 4 June 2019 (UTC) - Fixed

Thanks again, fixed those two issues. Kosack (talk) 16:52, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

• I'm done now, no further comments. Good luck at FAC. Eric Corbett 18:20, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Comments by TRM

• I would clarify right from the start he is an "association footballer" because so many of our readers (95%?) don't get it.

Your fine work on Kevin Beattie and Alf Ramsey were both promoted recently using simply footballer, along with any previous FA class football articles. I'd rather avoid the inconsistency given the widespread usage if possible. Kosack (talk) 21:02, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

• " a fitness instructor" this has modern connetations, was he really a physical training instructor? - Fixed
• "Overcoming doubts about the possibility of ever playing football again following his shrapnel wound" just feels a little verbose and clunky. -Trimmed
• Some inconsistency in the lead about linking seasons, cup finals and easter egg links with using just years. Avoid piping to just a year in most circumstances. - Fixed
• "outside England's borders." why not just "outside England"? - Fixed
• Ref 4 in the lead is the only ref in the lead, I'd suggest removing it and leaving it to the main body of the article where you'll expand upon the claim in any case. - Moved
• It's a minor point but he made a reasonably large number of appearances (as a "guest") for Brentford during the First World War, this appears to be omitted from the lead. I'd add at least a passing mention. - Added
• "on numerous occasions" do we know how many?

I'll check some sources to see if I can find a definite number. Kosack (talk) 08:49, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

• He's in the Welsh Sports Hall of Fame, is this covered? - Added
• " in the family home, a terraced house" not sure "the family home" is needed. - Reworded
• " Cardiff less than ten " fewer. - Fixed
• "appeared several times in the division." appeared several times in games. - Fixed
• Link "shillings" for our non-UK audience. - Done
• Link "friendly" - Done
• Link YMCA. - Done
• Don't assume we all know that Bluebirds is Cardiff's nick. - Reworded
• "of the Bluebirds next " probably needs a possessive apostrophe. - Done
• "former England international" easter egg. - Remkved
• " by William Joynson-Hicks, 1st Viscount Brentford in" comma after Brentford. - Done
• "to the site of each Cardiff " "site" reads really weird to me, it was to each of Cardiff's away venues, right? No-one describes them as "sites". - Reworded

That's taken me to the "World War I" (shouldn't that be First World War?) section. More anon. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:28, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

In all honesty, I'm never sure on that one. I went with World War I because the article is titled that. But I've changed it to First World War. Kosack (talk) 09:00, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

• "basic training" could be linked to recruit training. - Done
• "Just one month" no need for "Just". - Fixes
• Consider linking "front lines" and "billeted" as they are not common terms for most of our readers, especially in the context of a footballer. - Done
• "which was just miles" meaningless really.- Trimmed
• "moving" "moved" "moved" a lot of repetitive language here. - Reworded
• "The Middlesex Battalion, made up of professional footballers, " do we need to repeat the fact that the battalion was the football battalion? - Trimmed
• " including Frank Buckley " no need to repeat his first name as no other Buckleys have been mentioned I think. - Fixed
• " decided against the idea" -> " decided against it" - Fixed
• " in Chatham, Kent as" comma after Kent. - Fixed
• "Between 1915 and 1919, Keenor appeared as a guest for Brentford in the London Combination" 46 apps and that's all we have to say about it?

I've added aan extra sentence based on what I can find. I'll ping our resident Brentford expert @Beatpoet: to see if they can add any more. Kosack (talk) 09:59, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

You need his full Brentford guesting statistics? Beatpoet (talk) 11:09, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

@Beatpoet: I was wondering if there was any further information you could add on his time with Brentford in the prose? Kosack (talk) 08:44, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

I've read up and have nothing else to add, other than his season-upon-season stats while a guest. Beatpoet (talk) 20:53, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

• "reserve player" not sure this translates into American speak. - Reworded
• "After this, he featured" reiterate Keenor. - Done
• "achieved a fourth-placed finish" -> "finished fourth". - Done
• Link goal average. - Done
• " semi-final of the FA Cup," why not link to that season's cup article? - Done
• Seems odd to mention (unlinked) top tier and then link "First Division" in the following para. - Linked
• "After a difficult start to life in the First Division, Cardiff secured their first victory in the top division by beating Middlesbrough 3–1." no need for "to life" and explain what "difficult" means especially when you don't say when the first victory actually happened. - Reworded
• "guaranteed them the championship" I'd probably say "title" rather than "championship" - Done
• Link "testimonial match". - Done
• "The following season, the side reached " which side?! - Fixed
• "they suffered a 1–0 defeat" -> "they lost 1–0 to" - Done
• "FA Cup win[42] " just chuck that ref at the end of the sentence, horrible current placement. - Done
• "FA Cup final in 1927" easter egg link. - Removed
• "Keenor came close to never playing" why never? why not just "not"? - Fixed
• "as captain,[42][53] was handed the trophy by King George V.[54][42]" George V is piped to a redirect. Citations in numerical order please. - Fixed
• "traveled " BritEng should be "travelled".- Done
• "for a heroes' welcome," not particularly encyclopedic. - Removed
• "returned ... return" repetitive in the same sentence. - Reworded

That takes me to the "Later years" section. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:09, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

• "Two seasons after their cup triumph, despite " I would replace the comma with "and" - Done
• "wages he had been given " "he had received"? or "paid" rather than "given"? - Done
• "were relegated to the Third Division South. Keenor played his final match for the club on 6 April 1931 against Tottenham Hotspur, " reverse order? - Fixed
• "nucleus of a very good side". needs ref straight after. - Done
• "He was with Oswestry Town" really odd phrasing - "he was player-manager for..."?
• "after announcing his resignation from the Rangers." I don't think that's necessary at all. -Removed
• " senior team on 15 March 1920. He was named in the Wales squad f" shouldn't you link "senior team" rather than "Wales squad" as it comes first? - Fixed
• "This was the first time..." reads a little awkwardly to me, perhaps we can find a way to flow it into the prose. - Reworded
• " he attained a total " won is much more betterer than attained. - Done
• 1920, 1924 and 1928 are piped to redirects. - Fixed
• "Possibly the most famous of his international caps came in a match in Glasgow against Scotland in October 1930. " this is non-encyclopedic in extremis. It might be notable but let's set the scene as NPOV as we can please! and if this match is so notable, shouldn't it have an article?

I've reworded this to avoid any POV. It may meet WP:GNG if I can find enough newspaper sources. Might be worth looking into one day. Kosack (talk) 12:27, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

• Avoid repeating "featured" so many times. - Done
• Link "Racecourse Ground". - Done

Now done up to "Style of play" section. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:30, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

• "Described as possessing a "terrible" shot " by whom? Quotes should be attributed.

The source for the quote merely states" a historian". Is that acceptable do you think or should I drop the quote? Kosack (talk) 12:27, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

• "his commitment to the cause" this is really non-encyclopedic, if it's a quote, quote it. - Trimmed
• "for over 15 years " more than. - Fixed
• "after a match for Crewe Alexandra during the later years of his career after a physical " after ... after... -Reworded
• "He settled his family " surely not their last-born child?! -Reworded
• That he was a diabetic seems to be introduced late in the piece. Did this not become an issue during his playing career at all? - Apparently not, the first mention of his diabetes in Leighton's book is after his retirement. Kosack (talk) 12:27, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
• "waking up at 4:30 a.m. " I bet he didn't. He might have "got up" or similar. But no-one (apart from us psychos) wake up at the same time every day. -Reworded
• "store man in " what is a "store man"? - Linked
• " Muriel, his wife of nearly 50 years, died in 1967 " it mentions he survived but nothing about his wife.

I'm not sure if I understand this one, it does say she died? Kosack (talk) 12:27, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

• " resignation of Trevor Morris between 1959 and 1972. He resigned from " repetitive. - Reworded
• "On 15 November 2007 a ... On 4 December 2009, " be consistent throughout with the commas. - Fixed
• " the approaching road to " I would say "the road approaching .." - Fixed
• Why is "Shepherd, Richard " limited to pp. 26–27 when the refs use it (at least) from 17 to 32? - Fixed

The Rambling Man (talk) 21:04, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Thanks greatly both @Eric Corbett: and @The Rambling Man: for your input. I've addressed all of the issues you raised above. If you see any further issues please let me know, it's much appreciated if I'm gonna get this up to FA. Kosack (talk) 12:28, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

No problem. I'd consider just closing this PR now and heading over to FAC. Good luck, let me know when you nominate. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:45, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, will do. Kosack (talk) 18:41, 5 June 2019 (UTC)