Wikipedia:Peer review/Fez, Morocco/archive1

Fez, Morocco

I've listed this article for peer review because I am interested in nominating the article as a FAC. This would be may first FA attempt, so I want the article to be as prepared as possible. Thanks for any feedback! ––FormalDude (talk) 03:38, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

STANDARD NOTE: I have added this PR to the Template:FAC peer review sidebar to get quicker and more responses. When this PR is closed, please remove it from the list. Also, consider adding the sidebar to your userpage to help others discover pre-FAC PRs, and please review other articles in that template. Thanks, Z1720 (talk) 00:29, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

@FormalDude: This has been open for over a month without comment. Are you still interested in receiving feedback? Z1720 (talk) 14:41, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes I am. ––FormalDude (talk) 22:32, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

@FormalDude: I suggest asking for comments from Wikiprojects attached to this article or from editors with similar topic areas. Also, since it looks like you are still working towards your first successful FAC nomination, I suggest recruiting a mentor who can comment on this nomination, and reviewing featured article candidates to build goodwill amongst the FAC community. Z1720 (talk) 00:59, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestions, Z1720, I just posted to two WikiProjects. I'm struggling to find editors working in this topic area though. I have already reached out to the other top editor of this page. As for a potential mentor, I did contact someone however they were hesitant as they aren't super experienced with city articles. I actually opened this peer review after conferring with them. I have commented on FACs before, but I'll try to get some more reviews under my belt as well. While you're here, could I trouble you for any feedback on the article? ––FormalDude (talk) 05:02, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm not great with city articles, but I know there are some editors who really like editing them. Ensure that every paragraph has a citation at the end of it (paragraph 1 of Etymology and Demographics are missing citations) and expand or merge the shorter sections (Sport, Art, Music, Gardens, Utility). Hope this helps. Z1720 (talk) 15:20, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Comments by Cerebellum

I will review this! It will take a few days. --Cerebellum (talk) 08:23, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

@FormalDude: Here we go! I don't think I can match the standard set by Mertbiol, who gave you the best GA review I've ever seen, but I will do my best! --Cerebellum (talk) 10:48, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Lead

• and is considered the world's largest and oldest urban pedestrian zones (car-free areas). I think this should say and is considered one of the world's largest and oldest urban pedestrian zones (car-free areas).
  •  Done

Etymology

• with a hamza representing a glottal stop Would you be okay with removing this? It seems unnecessarily technical.
  •  Done
• In the etymology section you say al-ʿĀliyá with diacritics, in the history section you use Al-'Aliya without them. I recommend choosing one form and using it consistently throughout the article. Per MOS:DIACRITICS, I think either is fine although I prefer the simpler Al-'Aliya.
  •  Done

History

I like that in this section you don't simply list the events and the dynasties, but you emphasize how each dynasty affected the physical makeup of the city.

• After the first sentence, could you add a sentence explaining who Idris I was and where he came from? I think it is important to know that he was not originally from Morocco.
  •  Done
• Arab emigration to Fez increased afterwards. I think this should be immigration. Emigration from somewhere, immigration to somewhere. Double check because I may be wrong.
  •  Done
• were one major component of this I think were one major component of the immigrant population is a little clearer, although it is wordy.
  •  Done
• The first time you say Berbers, do you think where it is worth adding an explanation like "Berbers, the indigenous inhabitants of Morocco"? Or is that common knowledge?
  • I think it's common knowledge and if readers are not familiar with the Berbers they can easily find out through the wikilink. ––FormalDude (talk)
• The first time you use the term Zenata I think it is worth explaining it, saying that the Zenata were a Berber confederation.
  • The first time Zenata is used, it is used as "Zenata Berbers", which implies the Zenata were part of the Berbers. Should I reword it to specify that they were a Berber confederation? ––FormalDude (talk)
• Both brothers fortified their respective shores I think this will flow better if you mention that the two were brothers in the previous sentence.
  •  Done

Almoravids, Almohads and Marinids

consequence of the "rediscovery" I think you should remove the quotation marks per MOS:SCAREQUOTES, same with "holy".

•  Done

Saadis and 'Alawis

• army defeated the invading Portuguese army This is a bit jarring since it is the first time we hear about the Portuguese, I think it would help if you just changed "the invading Portuguese army” to “an invading Portuguese army."
  •  Done
• powerful Fassi families The infobox already says that Fassi is the demonym for Fez, but in case readers did not check the infobox, would you mind changing this to "families from Fez"?
  •  Done
• Fez played a central role in the Hafidhiya I don't think you need italics here.
  •  Done
• In 1641, Muhammad al-Haj of the Sanhaja Dilā' Sufi order occupied Fes. Change to Fez to keep usage consistent. There are a couple other instances of Fes, for example "The main spoken language in Fes."
  •  Done

Colonial period

While new colonial policies preserved historic monuments, it also had other consequences in the long-term due to stalling urban development in these heritage areas. This sentence is a bit clunky, I recommend While new colonial policies preserved historic monuments, they stalled urban development in heritage areas.

•  Done

Post-independence era

• during the second half of the 20th century. I think you can remove this without losing any meaning from the sentence.
  •  Done
• third largest urban center The lead says it is the second largest.
  •  Fixed

Rest of the article

• The main spoken language in Fes is Arabic Darija I would just say Moroccan Arabic, since readers may not know what Darija means.
  • I think this is fine, as the sentence goes on to explain exactly what Darija means. ––FormalDude (talk)
• Utility - I recommend changing the section title to "Utilities".
  •  Done
• following the Maliki orthodoxy I suggest following the Maliki school.
  •  Done
• There are a couple date ranges using hyphens, they should use an en dash per MOS:RANGE. 1969-71 and 1934-1936.
  •  Done
• In general everything in the lead should also be in the body, I did not see anything in the body about Fez being a World Heritage Site or one of the largest pedestrian zones.
  •  Done: Took care of the pedestrian zone. The World Heritage Site is mentioned twice in the body. ––FormalDude (talk)

Most of the comments above are minor prose tweaks. I think the overall content and structure are excellent. It is a wonderful article and I truly enjoyed reading it, I wish you the best at FAC! I'm afraid that I did not take the time to check any of the references or their images. For the references, I recommend you read through Wikipedia:Guidance on source reviewing at FAC and make sure that all of the references are formatted appropriately and include the minimum information listed in the "Formatting" section. For images, go to the FAC page and do a ctr+f search for "image review" to see what the common mistakes are. Make sure all images have alt text per MOS:ALT. --Cerebellum (talk) 10:48, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Thank you very much @Cerebellum! I've responded to all your feedback above. ––FormalDude (talk) 01:28, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Great :) No worries on the Zenata and Darija bits. --Cerebellum (talk) 10:05, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Driveby comments by Cas Liber

If possible, I'd avoid starting three consecutive paras in the lead with "Fez..." - however ignore if it makes sentences flow awkwardly (this change looks ok to me)

 Done.

Lead para 4 - present tense renders "Today" redundant.

 Done.

Fez declined and subsequently competed with Marrakesh for political and cultural influence - "declined" and "competed" sounds odd - I'd expect "grew" and "competed" - not sure how this can be rephrased yet.

 Done.

The last two sentences of lead para 4 I think would go better in lead para 1

 Done.

Arab immigration to Fez increased afterwards. - possibly redundant - let facts speak for themselves - Arabic character mentioned two sentences later

Not done for now: It's unclear how I could word this better, I think the Arabic character needs the context of Arab immigration. ––FormalDude (talk)

The city also had a strong Jewish community - "strong" is an odd word - "prominent"..."populous" or more specific adjective might be better

 Done.

Fez is also notable for having preserved a great many of its historic hammams - just write, "Fez has preserved many of its historic hammams"

 Done.

The article has 56kb of readable prose - generally upper limit of 50kb - if there is any segment that is overly detailed with material that could be relegated to a daughter article that might be prudent but not essential

These are all pretty minor queries - article looking pretty good overall Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:46, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Much appreciated, Cas Liber! Responded to your comments above, though I'm still working on trimming the prose. ––FormalDude (talk) 12:44, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Comments by Nikkimaria

• The history and landmarks sections are quite long relative to the length of the article, and the economy section is quite short

• Demographics is almost entirely language - is there information on other subtopics, such as religion, age distribution, etc?

• Details of linguistic features should go in an article on the language rather than here
• Typically utilities and transportation are combined together as an infrastructure section, rather than under Government

• You mention typical winter highs - what about lows and summers?
• Any info on local flora and fauna? Parks?

• Any info on healthcare, eg hospitals?

• Any local media - newspapers, radio stations, television?

• Any pre-university education? Literacy rates?
• The Court of Appeals is mentioned under Landmarks, but I'd expect to see judiciary info under Government
• Some of the details in the lead aren't reflected in the text - for example the nicknames

• I'd suggest reviewing for MOS compliance for FAC - eg repeated wikilinks, hyphens instead of dashes, etc

• Since Mohammed Errihani is a redlink, I'd add a couple of words of description

• For each source used, think about whether you'd be able to explain why it's a high-quality reliable source. If there are any you can't, replace them

• Some citations are incomplete - for example, footnote 32

• The reference formatting needs significant cleanup for consistency. Decide on a format for each type of source, then make sure each source of that type matches that format. For example, footnote 9 includes a publisher location, but footnote 8 does not - either of those is fine as long as it's consistent throughout. Similarly, some references have page numbers using {{rp}}, while others put the page numbers in the footnote itself.

• Avoid sandwiching text between images

• Morocco does not have freedom of panorama, so make sure all images of buildings include tags for the buildings themselves

• In general take a look at the images and make sure the tagging makes sense. For example, if you look at File:Abdication_of_Abd_al-Hafid_of_Morocco_(1912,_Le_Petit_Journal).jpg, its current tag (1) says a US tag is also needed, which is absent, and (2) relies on the author having died over 70 years ago, which in this case is not known. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:54, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria: Thanks a ton for your feedback! I'm working to implement it. One question: I'm not familiar with what you mean by making sure images of buildings include tags for the buildings themselves. What does that look like? ––FormalDude (talk) 23:01, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Here's an example involving a coin, but demonstrating the same principle: it's got one tag indicating why the coin itself is PD, and a second tag indicating why the photo of the coin is PD. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:13, 29 November 2023 (UTC)