Wikipedia:Peer review/Clube Atlético Mineiro/archive1

Clube Atlético Mineiro

I've listed this article for peer review because it has improved in the last couple of months, in terms of content and writing (going from Start to B-class). I believe it has potential to become a GA, but am a bit unsure if it is encyclopaedic enough or if it has common problems which I am unaware of because of my "involvement" with it. Thus, feedback and suggestions from more experienced Wikipedians would be valuable. It was copy edited by WP:GOCE in 23 October 2015.

Thanks, Felipe Bini (talk) 22:32, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Comments by Parutakupiu

Felipebini, I think this article is in pretty much good shape, actually. Still, I'll do a detailed analysis, and if you see no trouble, I'll be posting my comments in a section-by-section and gradual basis. Parutakupiu (talk) 23:46, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't see any trouble at all. In fact, I thank you for the help in any basis. I had added "done/not done" templates to your inputs, and now removed them after reading the PR notice. Still, I am improving the points you address as you post them. Felipe Bini (talk) 03:26, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Lead

• Per WP:OVERLINK, names of countries ("Brazil") should not be linked unless the link is particularly relevant for the article.
• Also per the above guideline, avoid duplicated wikilinks within the same section. For instance, there's two Brasileirão and Campeonato Mineiro instances.
• I think that "The club has also won the Campeonato Mineiro a record 43 times." should start the paragraph so that the enumeration of Atlético's titles progresses from the smallest geographical area (state) to the largest (country and continental).

Makes sense. Reordered that paragraph. Felipe Bini (talk) 18:07, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

• "... is used as the team's home in important and high attendance matches..." – Hyphen in "high attendance".

I was confused about the hyphen here, if I remember correctly in my first writing I inserted it, and then removed it, heh. Added back. Felipe Bini (talk) 18:07, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

• Avoid "with... verb + ing" in "... with matches between the two teams being known as the Clássico Mineiro." by dropping "being".
• In the infobox, you could add "(national)" and "(state)" after the respective league names to clarify readers (who would only check the infobox for information) why the club competes in two different leagues.

Done that, and removed overlinking to the league articles in the past year results. Also standardised the national league naming, I think referring to it interchangeably as "Campeonato Brasileiro Série A" and "Brasileirão" without previous explanation could be confusing. Felipe Bini (talk) 18:07, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

History

• Throughout this section, there many instances of the type "In <year>..." that should be followed by a comma. Another example is "... in the following year...", which should also have a comma after "following year".
• "... Atlético won Taça Bueno Brandão..." and "... Atlético took part in the first edition of Taça Brasil..." are missing a "the" before "Taça".
• What was Mário de Castro's role in that 1926 league win he "led" the team to? Coach or player? Maybe even captain? This is only clear in the following sentence.
• "... and Atlético won the state league again." → ""... which guided Atlético to another state league triumph."
• Remove the comma before "... against Vitória de Setúbal."
• "... earlier in the same year..." → "... earlier that year..."
• "Atlético won the state league in 1931, 1932 and became a professional club in 1933." → "Atlético won the state league in 1931 and 1932, before becoming a professional club in 1933."
• In "The competition was contested by the 1936 state league champions from Minas Gerais, Rio de Janeiro, São Paulo and Espírito Santo:...", I would add the participating clubs in brackets after their respective states, to facilitate state–club correspondence.

I felt this was confusing, a good solution indeed. Felipe Bini (talk) 03:26, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

• Remove unnecessary "which was" in ... which was played at the Antônio Carlos stadium."
• Add a citation at the end of "The title was followed by two more Campeonato Mineiro victories, in 1938 and 1939."
• "Success followed in the 1940s, with a squad that..." → "Success continued in the 1940s, with a squad that..."
• "Although Atlético's rival since its early days was América, in the 1940s the rivalry with Cruzeiro started to develop, as the latter was Galo's main challenger in the decade." → "Although América had been Atlético's long-standing adversary, a new rivalry started to develop with Cruzeiro in the 1940s, as it became Galo's main challenger during this period."
• "... an annual national cup between state league champions, created by..." → "... an annual nationwide cup competition contested between state league champions, and created by..."
• "It was in the mid-1960s that the rivalry with Cruzeiro became the biggest in the state..." – The "rivalry with" wikilink should have come earlier, when this rivalry is first mentioned. Also, unlink "Cruzeiro" (duplicate link).
• Replace "the rival club" in "after the rival club won the first five state leagues of the Mineirão era." with "this club" to avoid having "rivalry" and "rival" so close.

Another instance where I felt the writing could be better, but did not know how to solve. I added the wikilink to the rivalry up in the "...a new rivalry started to develop with Cruzeiro..." part. Felipe Bini (talk) 03:26, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

• "... defeated Yugoslavia – the Euro runners-up – 3–2 at the Mineirão." → "... defeated European Championship runners-up Yugoslavia 3–2 at the Mineirão."

It read like that before, this was a change made by Relentlessly of the GOCE. Not "blaming" here, as I chose to keep the change, but I too feel it flows better with the adjective before, good to see a second opinion on it. Felipe Bini (talk) 03:26, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

• "... and also finished third in the Roberto Gomes Pedrosa." → "... finishing also third in the last Roberto Gomes Pedrosa."
• No need to mention Telê in "In 1971, again managed by Telê...", since it's assumed he did not abandon his job.
• Add a period at the end of Dadá's and Reinaldo's image captions.

This was something I had doubts about while reading WP:CAP. Do captions that contain sentences between commas require periods? Seems they do. Felipe Bini (talk) 03:26, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

• "... and finished third in the Campeonato Brasileiro." → "... and finished third in that year's Campeonato Brasileiro."
• Remove the comma in "... were central to the team, that took Atlético...", and add a comma after 1983 in "... between 1978 and 1983 and to good results in the Série A."
• Add a comma after "Mineirão" in "... losing to São Paulo on penalties at the Mineirão...". Also, unlink "São Paulo" (duplicate link).
• "... celebrating his goals by raising his fist..."
• "The following year, Atlético was eliminated from the Copa Libertadores..." → "Atlético was eliminated from the following year's Copa Libertadores..."
• "The club had the best performances of the 1980, 1983 and 1985 Brasileirão seasons..." sounds that Atlético won those editions, which is not true. Maybe you wanted to say that the club's best performances of the decade in the Brasileirão were achieved during those years? Also, unlink "1980" (duplicate link).

This is something a bit tricky, this part was already in the article when I started editing and I rewrote it. The text originally had the word "campaign", which I think it's not suitable in English, and I changed it to "performance". I think it was intended to mean Atlético had the best record (in wins, draws, losses) in the first stages of the league in those years, despite not winning the title (as the knockout stages system meant a team with a worse record in the first stages could end up as champion). Checking the final standings of those seasons, though, it seems that either it's not strictly the case or it's difficult to determine for certain, so it could be dropped altogether or rewritten to "one of the best records" or "was among the best performers". I'll try to sort something out. Felipe Bini (talk) 03:26, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

• "... when it won the inaugural Copa CONMEBOL..." – Just to highlight the feat.
• "Cup" is missing after "... 1997 edition of the CONMEBOL..."
• Unlink "São Paulo" (duplicate link) in "... but lost to São Paulo in the final match...".
• "... Atlético, led by Marques and Guilherme, the top scorer in the league, reached the Série A finals..." → "... an Atlético side led by Marques and Guilherme, the top scorer in the league, reached the Série A finals..."
• Unlink "Campeonato Mineiro" (duplicate link) in "The team won its 40th Campeonato Mineiro in 2010...".
• "... which eventually finished as runner-up in the Série A and earned a spot in the following year's Copa Libertadores." – Wikilink "Série A" to the corresponding season's article, and extend the Copa Libertadores wikilink to include "the following year's". Also, add a citation at the end of the sentence.
• Unlink Tardelli and Gilberto Silva (duplicate links) in "2013 saw the return of Tardelli and Gilberto Silva to the club..."
• "... who joined Ronaldinho, Jô and Bernard, and Atlético won another Campeonato Mineiro." → "... who joined Ronaldinho, Jô and Bernard towards another Campeonato Mineiro triumph."
• Peculiar that you never added a wikilink to 2013 Copa Libertadores, the only edition won by Atlético. Maybe do it in "... that season's Copa Libertadores..."?

It was already wikilinked in the previous paragraph, at "...earned a spot at the following year's Copa Libertadores...". I rewrote the part about the matches against Olimpia to add a wikilink to the finals, though. Felipe Bini (talk) 03:26, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

• Unlink "Copa Libertadores" and "Olimpia" (duplicate links) in "... the club won its first Copa Libertadores by defeating Olimpia..." and "Lanús" in "... after once again meeting Lanús in a continental final...".
• Wikilink "aggregate" and "extra-time".
• Add a period at the end of Ronaldinho's image caption.

Symbols and colours

• Replace the first "format" in "The crest's general format has been kept ever since, with only the exact format ..." with "appearance", to avoid repetition.
• "Pierucetti, known as Mangabeira, was designated to design a mascot..." – "Designated to design"? Yikes! Chosen, selected, picked... so many other choices.

Embarassing. My bad for not changing this after improving the article. Felipe Bini (talk) 21:16, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

• Why is "Mangabeira" first shown in italics and then not?
• Remove the "Shirt sponsors and kit manufacturers" header. It's not essential (it's all kits-related content) and leaves a nasty overhang in the TOC table.
• Add comma after the year in "In 2008 a black-and-gold vertically striped third kit...", in "In 1982 bank Credireal was Atlético's first shirt sponsor." and in "In 1987 Coca-Cola sponsored...". Also, after "season" in "Since the 1981 season...".
• "Squad number 12 is retired from the club's kits, dedicated to the fans." → "Squad number 12 is retired from the club's kits in dedication to the fans."
• "... which is contracted to supply the team until 2015." – You mean the end of the 2015 season?
• Most of the club's kit manufacturers and shirt sponsors are lacking supporting references.

Grounds

• Add a period at the end of the image captions for Estádio Presidente Antônio Carlos and Mineirão (according to WP:CAP, they have complete sentences, hence must be closed by a period mark).
• Remove the fixed width parameters for the Estádio Presidente Antônio Carlos and Independência images.

Done in Antônio Carlos. The fixed width in the Independência image is to prevent a part of the Mineirão paragraph from getting sandwiched between images. Is there another way to solve that? Felipe Bini (talk) 21:16, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

In my screen, I only see the first line of Mineirão's paragraph sandwiched between both images (if both use default width size) – hardly disturbing. Parutakupiu (talk) 23:37, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

It's the same in my screen, actually. I might have taken the "avoid sandwiching" instruction too rigidly. Felipe Bini (talk) 02:21, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

• "Atlético had its first own home ground at Paraopeba Avenue, in downtown Belo Horizonte, built in 1912 across the street from América's first stadium." → "Atlético had its first home ground built in 1912 at Paraopeba Avenue, in downtown Belo Horizonte, across the street from América's first stadium."
• Replace "bairro" for the English equivalent "quarter".
• The sentence "After decades of legal disputes with the municipal government..." is too long. Consider breaking it into two, after "1991".
• In "Construction for Estádio Raimundo Sampaio, more commonly known as Independência...", it feels like you're talking about the stadium for the first time, when it was already mentioned by its common name (and wikilinked!) in the previous paragraph.
• "... ownership was transferred to Sete de Setembro FC in 1965 when the Mineirão was built, and in 1997 property passed to América, when it absorbed Sete de Setembro." → "... ownership was transferred to Sete de Setembro FC in 1965, when the Mineirão was built, and the property then passed to América in 1997, when it absorbed Sete de Setembro."
• "... was the largest in Belo Horizonte and held up to 30,000 people; it was preferred by Atlético ..." → "... was the largest in Belo Horizonte – holding up to 30,000 people – and was preferred by Atlético..."
• "... except in important and high attendance matches." – Hyphen in "high attendance".
• Mineirão is not linked in its first appearance, only later in its own paragraph. Also, unlink "Cruzeiro" and the subsequent "2014 FIFA World Cup" (duplicate wikilinks).
• "...due to being much larger than any other stadium in Belo Horizonte or in the state, holding over 100,000 spectators at its peak." → "... as its peak capacity of 100,000 spectators surpassed any other stadium in Belo Horizonte or in the state."
• "... prior to the 2014 FIFA World Cup, when the club temporarily moved..." → "... prior to the 2014 FIFA World Cup. The club moved temporarily..."
• "... first choice home stadium again." – Hyphen in "first choice".
• Provide an English translation for "Vila Olímpica".

Supporters

• Remove the fixed width sizes from both images.

Done for the supporters photo. If the chart is set with its automatic thumbnail size, it gets so small its contents can hardly be seen at all. Felipe Bini (talk) 21:16, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

True. I guess you can leave it as is, and then see what FAC reviewers say about that. Parutakupiu (talk) 23:37, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

After reading WP:IMAGESIZE, I've removed the fixed width and replaced it with a upright=2 parameter, which I think is the correct way to resize it. Felipe Bini (talk) 02:21, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

• Unlink "Olímpia" and "Mineirão" (duplicate wikilinks).
• Add comma after the year in "In 1999...".
• "Atlético launched TV Galo in 2007, a TV Channel..." – Should be "television channel". By the way, is it a premium channel?

Rivalries

• Remove the fixed width size from the Clássico image.
• Unlink "Cruzeiro" and "América" (duplicate wikilinks).
• "It strengthened in the 1940s, and in 1960s it became the biggest derby in Minas Gerais." → "It strengthened in the 1940s, and became the biggest derby in Minas Gerais in the 1960s."

Honours

• In the list, all competitions in which Atlético won titles have references, except for Série A and B and the Copa Brasil.

Yep, that's all from me at this point. I haven't checked the references (format and reliability), but I think that what you have now is pretty much good to go for WP:FAC! Boa sorte, Felipe Bini!

I've done away with all the points addressed now. Parutakupiu, thank you very much for this complete run-through and the copy-editing. Your comments certainly helped improve the article, which needed fine-tuning in many aspects (and even "tuning" itself in others), and myself as a Wikipedia editor. Muito obrigado! Felipe Bini (talk) 13:34, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Well, with the input from our Portuguese colleague, there is little left for me to improve. However, reference 142 is from Flapedia, a user-created encyclopedia. There must be a reliable source for this information somewhere for Flapedia to have known it in the first place, unless they have been counting every result since 1929! '''tAD''' (talk) 04:51, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

True, but I'm having a hard time finding reliable, up-to-date sources for the rivalry records and some statistics that are not user-created encylopedias (Flapedia is not the only one used as source in the article). If I can't find them, I think the best to do may be remove this information altogehter. Felipe Bini (talk) 15:44, 19 November 2015 (UTC)