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Clarence 13X

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This peer review discussion has been closed.
Clarence 13X was a fascinating character from 1960s Harlem who successfully founded a new religious movement. I'd appreciate a peer review based on the FA criteria (WP:WIAFA). Input on flow and comprehensibility would be particularly appreciated. Trying to balance the discussion of his theology with his life narrative was somewhat difficult. Thanks, Mark Arsten (talk) 04:21, 1 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - a very interesting read.

  • "also enjoyed gambling" plus "He often gambled and.." in consecutive paras, probably no need for the reptition.
  • "After an incident that year " later or earlier?
  • "Virginia was then racially segregated, ..." could be read that this happened afterwards as opposed to "At that time, Virginia was racially..."
  • Is the infection with syphilis really relevant or is it there to hint at some level of promiscuity?
  • "He was nicknamed "Pudding"; ..." seems somewhat crowbarred in, especially after talking about him being known the FBI, it seems something of a non sequitur.
  • "unrest occurred owing " reads awkwardly to me. "unrest was caused by"?
  • "concluded that numbers represent specific concepts" not 100% but think that "represented" would read a little smoother.
  • "Some Five Percents supported " previously and subsequently you refer to them as Percenters.
  • "women were "earths" with " you said this before, perhaps a minor rephrase of this section to avoid repeating the "earths" name.
  • You link "birth control" but not "polygamy", I would think most would know the former but perhaps not the latter...
  • Maybe I'm reading it wrong but the arrest etc which you said was in the "same year" as when he was first shot (1964) seems to have been in 1965 according to the Arrest section?
  • "about 60 of his " personal pref but I'd prefer to see "around 60"...
  • "and set $9,500 bail" reads a little odd to me, but I'm British. I would have expected it to say "set his bail at $9,500."
  • "have psychological problems" in the lead you were specific in saying he suffered from paranoid schizophrenia. Could be specific here.
  • "While Clarence 13X was in prison" you referred to it as a hospital in the previous paragraph...
  • I think court cases are typically in italics, e.g. R. v. Oakes...
  • Should Urban League be National Urban League?
  • "The city of New York subsequently agreed ..." I see this a lot but what does it mean?
  • "That morning, several people .." -> "Later that morning.."?
  • "Clarence 13X was cremated, and his funeral was held four days after his death" seems to me this is the wrong way round...
  • "pp. 32–35." vs "pp. 37–8." be consistent with number of digits.
  • "pp. 66 & 69." any reason why that isn't a range?

The Rambling Man (talk) 09:54, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: Found some time this morning to give this a read through, per your request. Comments follow.

Lead:

  • Why no infobox?
  • The most natural way for me to read the name of the article's subject is "Clarence thirteen-ex", and I suspect that's how it is meant to be, but it occurs to me that it could also be "Clarence one-three-ex" or "Clarence thirteen times" (X being the symbol for multiplication). Wonder if this could be clarified without looking goofy?
  • "later known as Clarence 13X and Allah" Might it be appropriate to say something like "better known by his assumed monikers Clarence 13X and Allah" so that it's clear he chose those names for himself?
  • "It is not known why he left" I think you can drop this. The rest of the sentence implies this, and it can stand on its own.
  • "He disagreed with the NOI's teachings about the status of Wallace Fard Muhammad, whom they considered a divine messenger. Clarence 13X argued that Fard could not be divine because he was part white, contradicting the NOI's teaching that God is black." Could we maybe combine this to say "He disagreed with the NOI's teaching that Wallace Fard Muhammad was a divine messenger, because Fard was part white; Clarence 13X argued that this contradicted the NOI's teaching that God is black."
  • Later in the article, we have "[Clarence 13X] believed that Fard was of partial Caucasian descent". Was there doubt about this? If so, we should note it in the lead as well.
  • Why is Wallace Fard Muhammad referred to concisely as "Fard" instead of "Muhammad"?
  • "took the name Allah to symbolize [divine] status" In light of this statement, it might be worth linking "Allah" somewhere for readers that may not know that is the name of the deity of Islam.
  • "They devised numerological teachings about letters and numbers" Can you devise a "numerological teaching" about a letter? Maybe choose a different adjective here.
  • I like the use of semicolons to vary sentence structure, but I think it's overdone in the second paragraph of the lead.
  • "He was released from custody after a court ruling in 1966." What did the court rule? How did it effect his release?

Early life and Nation of Islam:

  • "he witnessed incidents of racism, including a fight between his father and a white man" A fight between two people of different races is not necessarily racism. Do we know anything about the incident and how it was connected to racism?
  • "In 1946, he moved to New York City with his mother, where they settled in Harlem." Did his parents divorce? Were they ever married? What prompted their separation and his mother's move to New York?
  • "Dora had embraced the group while he was away" This paragraph should lead with this information. It makes the transition from the previous paragraph smoother.
  • "Clarence 13X became disillusioned with the organization" Disillusioned kind of implies that he was misled about something. "Disenchanted" might be a more accurate term.
  • "His departure has been variously attributed to doubts about the NOI's theology, violations of their moral code, objections to the luxurious lifestyles of their senior leadership, or that he was distrusted by Malcolm X." The last item breaks the parallelism of the sentence. Maybe try "His departure has been variously attributed to doubts about the NOI's theology, violations of their moral code, objections to the luxurious lifestyles of their senior leadership, or Malcolm X's distrust of him." Alternatively, you might break the last part out into its own sentence.
  • "NOI members have offered contradictory accounts of the events that led to Clarence 13X's departure, and whether it was voluntary." This might work better before the preceding sentence.

Founding the Five Percenters:

  • "At that time, they sometimes smoked marijuana together, and John 37X regularly used heroin." This kind of seems like a random tidbit until mention of John 37X's imprisonment on drug charges. Later, we also have "he sold and used drugs". I'm not sure you couldn't drop both and just leave that "During [living mathematics'] development, John 37X was imprisoned on firearms charges." Otherwise, I think the integration of the drug use/selling facts could be tighter.
  • "Comparisons have also been made between his teachings and Gnosticism, Kemetism, and Kabbalah." Who has made these comparisons?
  • "Five Percenters teach that Clarence 13X was an incarnation of God, and that black men are gods. Followers are thus encouraged to look within themselves in their search for God." There is a shift to the present tense for two sentences here, then back to past tense. I understand that these are probably still teachings of the Five Percenter movement, but the shift in tense within the same paragraph was jarring for me. You might want to look for ways to avoid it.
  • "arguing that pigs were similar to animals that are not eaten, such as rats and dogs" Other animals that are not eaten by whom? My understanding is that some groups of people do eat dogs, at least, and maybe rats too.
  • "Hip hop mogul Russell Simmons recalls" Why is Russell Simmons qualified to comment? Where does he "recall" his observations from? Did he live near a recruiting post or something?
  • "Attendees were given wide freedom to speak in a system that has been compared to Quaker meetings." Again, who is making this comparison? We have to know in order to judge its reliability and accuracy.
  • "The group initially became known as the "Suns of Almighty God Allah", or the "Blood Brothers"." Why not "Clarence 13X's group was initially known as the "Suns of Almighty God Allah", or the "Blood Brothers"."?
  • "they are said to embody his attributes." Whose attributes? Clarence 13X's? God's? I guess they are kind of one in the same to this group, but it is still a little unclear to me.
  • "The name was drawn from the NOI's claim to be the five percent of the black community who knew and promoted the truth about God; Clarence 13X considered his movement to be the five percent of the NOI which still held to truth and integrity" So, just to check my understanding, they were 5% of the 5%? If so, no action needed. If not, this is the conclusion I came to reading this.

Opposition:

Arrest:

  • "At his arraignment, around 60 of his followers attended" Maybe just "Approximately 60 of his followers attended his arraignment..."
  • "were removed from the court after shouting "Peace"." Was this like a one-time shout in unison or was it repeated like a chant? Maybe it was a disorganized cacophony. It would be nice to know, if the sources say.
  • "Five Percenters resisted Louis Farrakhan's attempts to convert them" Convert them to what?
  • "It took an unusually long time for Clarence 13X's psychiatric results to be processed" Given the next sentence, I'm guessing that "unusually long" was Knight's assessment. It probably needs to be attributed, and I think you can probably combine this sentence and the next one to do that effectively.
  • "converting one young white man" Is this the "white follower" mentioned in the lead? Is he the only white Five Percenter that we know of? If not, is he at least Clarence 13X's first white follower? If so, that probably deserves note.

Cooperation and conflict:

  • "Prompted in part by concerns voiced by the NYPD" Has this abbreviation been spelled out before?
  • "The city of New York subsequently agreed to help Clarence 13X publish a book of Five Percenter teachings and portions of the Quran." Interesting that he wanted to publish portions of the Quran, but he no longer identified as Muslim. Any idea why?
    • That is counter-intuitive, I'm not sure there's a clear reason why in the source. I believe his objection to "Islam" was that it means "submission", and as Allah he didn't have to submit to anyone. The group was/is syncretist at heart though, so it's not uncommon for them to borrow from other groups to an extent. I put a bit about that next to his not identifying as Muslim. Mark Arsten (talk) 01:47, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • Again, we can't say what the sources don't. I didn't expect there to be much about this, but left this comment to prompt you to look anyway, just to be sure. It's fine. I suspect your explanation is pretty close to right. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 13:41, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Willieen Jowers recalled that Clarence 13X admitted that his previous teachings about racial hatred were wrong around this time." What role has Jowers been playing all this time? I kind of assumed she faded out of the picture after the birth of her second child.
  • "Gloria Steinem published an article about Clarence 13X in New York." Maybe specify New York magazine. Otherwise, we don't know if it's a book, newspaper, or what.

Death:

Legacy and reception:

Again, this is well-written overall, and my quibbles are pretty minor. Probably not a subject I'd have reviewed voluntarily, but a pretty easy review considering the article's length. If you get a chance and wouldn't mind, I've got Constitution Square State Historic Site up for PR. It's kind of a different article for me, too, considering I usually do biographies, but after a weekender trip there a few months back, I got interested in it, and I think it might stand a chance at FAC. See what you think if you have time. Thanks. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 17:19, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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